Out of interest, what happened in 1860 in the Balkans that made you choose to make the variant in that time and place?

Oh, so very much - it was a fascinating time. The nationalist awakening of the early 19th century was bearing fruit and sweeping away the old monarchies. The scattered Italian states became a unified nation during the Risorgimento and the campaigns of Giuseppe Garibaldi. The decaying Ottoman empire, like a receding glacier, left isolated religious and ethnic pockets across the Balkans, which were flash points for conflicts then - and now. Likewise, the Austrians abandoned Joseph II's futile attempts to forge a unified state out of the numerous and fiercely independent peoples that comprised the Habsburg holdings. This wise approach allowed them another hundred years of relative prosperity while their ancient rivals (the Ottomans) crumbled. Meanwhile the Greeks entertained (and nearly realized!) the fantastic dream of recreating their vast empires of antiquity, despite overwhelming Ottoman military superiority. The long subjugated Serbs, Bulgarians, and Romanians threw off the chains of centuries of foreign occupation and rule. (slightly anachronistic here - most of these were not truly independent until the 1870s, but I have tried to capture the spirit of these early nationalist uprisings even before they won their independence.) It was one of the most fascinating and chaotic times of history (not unlike Sengoku :-) and lends itself readily to adaptation for Diplomacy.

I failed to address it above, but the proposed Graz+Wien merger is a good idea that is also being considered. So add that to the list.

or make Salzburg a fourth Austrian starting SC...

From what I see in the Gunboat tourney, Austria's growth potential is fairly good as it is, though they don't have nearly as much potential against Italy. I would recommend the Graz + Wien merger over a 4th SC in Salzburg.

can't speak on the gunboat tourney as it's ongoing, but regarding the map design alone, my one concern with the Graz-Wien merger is that it puts Wien adjacent to Agram, with the undesirable effect of pulling Austria (even more strongly) south into conflict with Serbia. if the goal is to nerf Italy, we have to find ways to make A/S a more viable alliance. Graz-Wien merger closes the Austrian gap to gain Salzburg, which is good, but drawing Austria south is not.

of course, if we proceed with Ottoman SC Bitola(Monastir) then Serbia themselves will have one more thing in the south to worry about (losing Tirana, which is a frequent target for F Cetinje)

Bulgaria is pretty vulnerable. Romania really does need to hit him early and Bulgaria is also steadfastly in Ottoman's way. Both are edge powers and Bulgaria starts in the middle of just about everyone.

Hi Mikey - hm. I thought I had offset this well enough with the potential for good first-year gains relative to the other positions (well, except Italy, as discussed above.) Both elsewhere and here, lots of Bulgarian players seem to be doing well thus far, particularly when they're able to cut a deal with the Ottomans, but also sometimes in opposition to them too. I'll have to see the results of the current batch of games before tinkering with Bulgaria. They're definitely my Balkans1860 equivalent of Austria in Standard, but I think that position at least is pretty well balanced, and in most playtests thus far, their performance has supported that assessment. If I strengthen the Ottomans too much in revisions though, the impact on Bulgaria will certainly have to be considered.

also noteworthy, of the few Balkans1860 games completed thus far, Bulgaria has solo'd twice

My prediction... Romania is Balkans1860's Mori. :-)

I don't think we are to set extremely right balance on every map. Have you seen this in real life? Small countries set alliances to resist big powers. So, on every map in every game players must be smart to understand who is more predisposed to win and crash him first - not small and weak ones.

Alliances formed historically, but that's less viable for Gunboat. Now if this map is just going to be imbalanced in limited press, that's fine. But it would be nice to be able to play with a balanced Italy.

Seeing as the map isn't entirely accurate (Ottomans should be much larger, treaty of San Stefano wasn't until 1878), a few liberties could be taken. Perhaps keep the Balkans the same but split Italy into Piedmont-Sardinia and the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. Call it Balkans 1840s, roughly as accurate as this map.

I have played for Italy on this map. It's not so strong as you say. It's "great" position followed with progress difficulties to the east.

Cjuric's suggestion to split Italy has already been adopted, though the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies will be neutral SCs, not a playable power. This should serve to slow Italy's growth, and entice Greece west more often. My primary concern now is how to reduce tension on the Greek Ottoman border, especially if Bitola (renamed Monastir) becomes an Ottoman home SC (as noted above, the absence of Rumelia Eyalet is irritatingly anachronistic)

"Alliances formed historically, but that's less viable for Gunboat." - cjuric (1024 D)

Austria in Classic is not good for gunboats too, but still we have this variant avaliable for playing.

"Austria in Classic is not good for gunboats too, but still we have this variant avaliable for playing." - Flame (0 D)

Tell me about it... :-(

In 1860 the Papal States still had much of their historical territories. Will it be represented in the rework (by Ancona remaining neutral)?

P.S.: Southern Italy was a very agrarian and depopulated (proportional to size) region.

Isn't giving it four centers - Ancona, Rome, Naples and Palermo - a bit too much? Especially because only Italy and Greece can reasonably fight for them in the early going.

true, but lacking a southern incentive, Italy will team up with Serbia against A/H every time

...and Greece needs a powerful draw to the west in order to avoid locking horns with the Ottomans every time. (while perhaps unthinkable historically, that is intended to be a viable alliance in game!)

Of course, that makes perfect sense. Yet Southern Italy would have 4 centers between 2 powers, while:

Compare with Macedonia, the only "buffer area" with more than 2 centers: it has 4 centers between 4 powers.

So perhaps one of those centers can go, leaving one "sure center" for Italy (Rome) and two others to be fought for between Italy and Greece?

the intent - that I probably have not achieved yet - is that Serbia is also in play for the southern Italian SCs. That has been the greatest challenge - making AH/S (particularly aimed at Italy, and not just Romania) an appealing opening alliance.

I think it would be interesting to have one Western Italian SC replaced with an SC on the South-East of Italy (Brindisi/Isemia). Then again, my knowledge of the Balkans/Italy around this period is extremely limited and there is probably lesser historical significance to putting an SC there.

Though something like that would perhaps shape more intens dynamics between Serbia and Italy ;-)

*This would then not be a home SC of Italy but rather a neutral SC on the Italian peninsula.

to this end, I am also greatly increasing the space between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. No longer will Novi Sad be all that separates their home SCs. For an AH/S alliance to be viable, they must be able to work around each other. The most likely form of this alliance is Serbia helping AH drive down the Italian boot, while AH tips the tide against Bulgaria/Romania in the Serbian favor.

AH/S/G and AH/S/B "central power" triples should also be viable plans

The focus above is on limiting Italy (agreed, also agree that Italy’s early unopposed expansion gets harder in the middle game). I would add that ottoman has very tough early choices. As a corner power it can hold out without rapid expansion. But without any distractions for Greece and needing to keep a wary eye to the north too, it’s a touch weak as it stands. Hard to get off the mark at the beginning

yup - thus I am considering (along with a slew of other balancing changes in the region) Ottoman home SC Monastir (currently called Bitola.)

This will destabilize predictable alliance pairs, improve the Ottoman position, and best of all, be historically accurate, as the seat of the not-quite-dead-yet Rumelia Eyalet.

draft map in progress, lest anyone think I'm dropping this one now that Sengoku is out. Link below.

Spoiler: Italy is heavily nerfed. Note the additional home SCs for Ottomans and Austria. All opinions, positive and negative are welcome, hopefully all are constructive.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2CiokzfWGBhQ2k2b1AwRWVfZk0/view?usp=sharing