Start: If full - Expires: 11 days, 3 hours (11 PM Sun 06 Dec UTC)
Private ER Team Game
2 days /phase
Unrated - Spring, 1450, 2 players (of 36) missing.
Europa Renovatio, Unranked
2 excused NMR / regain after 5 turn(s) / extend the first 3 turn(s)
Tue 02 AM UTC (erikip107): lol lets do 1 team of 36
Tue 02 AM UTC (DaveSpermbank): based
Tue 02 AM UTC (ubercacher16): 2 teams of 18
Tue 02 AM UTC (DaveSpermbank): wait no you're the guy who won't answer my messages :(
Tue 02 AM UTC (ubercacher16): 9 teams of 4 makes sense to me. Besides, the person doing the assignments can try to make them reasonably close to one another.
Tue 02 AM UTC (MagicalSand): Ye
Tue 02 AM UTC (ezpickins): 12 teams of 3?
Tue 02 AM UTC (DaveSpermbank): anyways i think it should be either:

6 teams of 6
4 teams of 9
3 teams of 12

instead of the current 9 teams of 4 countries. and i think the teams should be public.

currently, about the teams, are you allowed to work outside of your team?

i just don't want a tlemcen-gh-bavaria-scotland team to happen and there is no interaction
Tue 02 AM UTC (ezpickins): Real talk though, is this map more or less balanced than Modern Europe?
Tue 02 AM UTC (ezpickins): You are allowed to work outside of your team, and definitely should. I'm here for 9 teams.
Tue 02 AM UTC (CYFI): I think 9 teams of 4, if the teams are somewhat close (each team member has at most one neighbor between them, (ex Denmark, Novgorod, Saxony, scotland). It definitely, should be arbitrated by an independent
Tue 02 AM UTC (xXDoritoJunkieXx): Dave, I'm no mathematician, but I think we shouldn't neglect the possibilities of

36 teams of 1
1 team of 36

That being said, I do agree with you that with a random distribution of 9 teams of 4, until the mid game there probably would not be too much room for team coordination. But then some countries will be destroyed and the map will close a bit and the teams can get more active, though they may have lost a member by then. But that is good and fine. Or there is the snake draft by which each team should be able to get at least 2 countries relatively close to each other at the start.
Tue 02 AM UTC (xXDoritoJunkieXx): Wow I missed a lot of messages there. Next time I'm hopping between work and diplomacy I'll remember to refresh the page.
Tue 02 AM UTC (EvW): I like random. Could be unbalanced, but it's less predictable.

I don't think distance between teams is necessarily bad - would result in some interesting long term planning, and players would still need rely on the usual diplomacy in their local area, instead of it becoming basically a 9-player map.
Tue 02 AM UTC (CYFI): I think if it were to be random I think we should avoid teams that have too much power over one area
Tue 02 AM UTC (xXDoritoJunkieXx): Imo there's a big difference in if teams are common knowledge or secret. Like with secret teams Novgorod-Great Horde would be too dangerous, but if Lithuania knows that they are a team, they can adjust their actions to that to help Muscovy so it balances out again.
Tue 02 AM UTC (drano019): I hate to pull the "I came up with this idea card", but I think I'm gonna.

It's 9 teams of 4. Random and secret. Mercy has the latitude to make slight changes if we end up with some really weird groupings (like 4 neighbors or something). Any and all changes he makes will be secret, so we'll never know he did it. And yes, you can (and should) work outside your team however you need to. But remember, the game only ends when 1 team survives or a COMPLETE stalemate. No negotiated, 3 team draws.
Tue 02 AM UTC (DaveSpermbank): the map is more balanced. modern europe has ways to make it unplayable for certain players with spring year one gotcha moves.
Tue 02 AM UTC (alex.noggle@yahoo.com): I think random anonymous teams sound pretty good. I mean it's pretty unlikely that anything too OP will happen. What's the worst that could happen?
Tue 02 AM UTC (DaveSpermbank): @ezpickins ^
Tue 02 AM UTC (DaveSpermbank): idk i don't want like a secret genoa-venice-aragon-mamluks team. i think we need to do something to ensure that teammates get some interaction.
Tue 02 AM UTC (DaveSpermbank): 6 teams of 6 perhaps?
Tue 02 AM UTC (DaveSpermbank): also realizing that if you make a variant with the greater caucasus-danube-rhine as the border, you have a fair balanced game.

genoa is south, hungary north, austria south, switzerland south, france south, burgundy south, england north, etc, you have a fair north vs south.
Tue 02 AM UTC (DaveSpermbank): or maybe bavaria should be south? idk
Tue 02 AM UTC (DaveSpermbank): depends on where the danube runs
Tue 02 AM UTC (drano019): 6 teams of 6 is too big in my opinion. Too easy to lock down parts of the map if you end up with powers near stalemate lines together.

Anyways, it's not up for discussion. 9 teams of 4, random. Secret. Mercy has at his discretion the ability to modify slightly. We can always play another with different parameters since this is unranked.
Tue 02 AM UTC (DaveSpermbank): if you are going to make a 2 player er variant you will want 9 3 sc and 9 4+ sc countries on both sides
Tue 02 AM UTC (DaveSpermbank): @drano019 ok
Tue 02 AM UTC (erikip107): Would interaction in this case mean that the teammates border each other? Perhaps in groups of 2? Or would it mean that they both border the same enemy power? or something else? The former could be interesting but it would become obvious pretty soon. The latter, same thing but I feel like it could get pretty unbalanced pretty fast.
Tue 02 AM UTC (erikip107): sounds good drano019!
Tue 04 AM UTC (Poolside): Drano019, agree. I’m down.
Tue 10 AM UTC (CCR): I'm here!
Tue 02 PM UTC (bsiper): Sorry I'm late yall!
Tue 02 PM UTC (Frozen Dog): Better late than never!
Tue 02 PM UTC (alex.noggle@yahoo.com): 5 more to go. I presume once we’re in we will get PM’ed our team members?
Tue 02 PM UTC (LovelyPinkEgg): Sure, we also have to pause, so Mercy can PM us all in time, right?
Tue 03 PM UTC (ubercacher16): Yes, pause right away, don't message people.
Tue 03 PM UTC (drano019): I will force pause the game as soon as it starts and I see it.

As uber said, don't message people until after the team assignments are given out.
02:51 PM UTC (Taishi Ci): Just want to wish everyone a happy US Thanksgiving soon, and good luck on the game and with your team!
03:35 PM UTC (JacobL582): Once we get our last two, can we extend the initial pause through the entirety of the Thanksgiving weekend? I'd rather focus on Family this weekend than the significant time investment of a new game... But I'll be ready to hit this game hard on Monday!
03:39 PM UTC (drano019): The game will be force paused as soon as we get filled. At the very least, I imagine it won't get started again until Saturday.

More likely, we wait until Friday, the last 2 don't join up since they haven't logged in, then we get replacements joined Friday, pause for team assignments through Saturday, and start Sunday or Monday.
03:55 PM UTC (Taishi Ci): Question about team secrecy: Are we allowed to tell (or "tell") non-team-members what team we're on (without official confirmation), or should we not do that?
03:58 PM UTC (drano019): Teams are free to do as they wish wtih regards to communication - however, I imagine most teams would want to keep secrecy.
04:40 PM UTC (bsiper): it would be pretty great if a team or two decides to be completely public
04:44 PM UTC (DaveSpermbank): Two more. Are those the two that hadn’t been on the site in months? Can we bring in the subs?
04:46 PM UTC (drano019): Yes and yes Dave. Subs can come in on Friday. We won't start until at least Sunday anyways due to the holiday tomorrow.
04:47 PM UTC (MiraiNikkiSan): Thanks Taishi, you too!
04:53 PM UTC (DaveSpermbank): @drano019 is there anything we are doing to prevent having teams that will not have interaction?

And will the teams be 2 3-center powers and 2 4 or 5-center powers? There are 18 with 3 and 18 with 4 or more.
05:40 PM UTC (EvW): The powers with more centers have more because of their more dangerous position. They're not inherently stronger. Mostly, at least. Portugal seems to be weak despite the 4 centers, and a couple of corner powers (GH, Mamluks?) are rather strong despite only having 3.
05:51 PM UTC (drano019): Dave -

Mercy has latitude to change things as he sees fit if there is an "odd" results of the random selection. I understand the concern about teams not having interaction, but unless a team randomly comes up as Tlemcen, Switzerland, Poland, and QQ or something, there *will* be interaction. Teammates merely need to think beyond "how can we directly support each other" and instead consider "how can we accomplish things that allow us all to flourish".

I know it's cliche, but Diplomacy really is the key. Good diplomacy can overcome many shortcomings.
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