I do not think either of those rules are problems with the Pirates variant. The only issue with the two space retreat that I saw was a glitch that allowed retreating clippers to then occupy the space from which the successful attacking fleet began the phase in. Otherwise the two space retreat was fine, if not chaotic, but isn't that what you want from pirates? The privateers rule never bothered me all that much. The reality is that it's just licensed and mandated carebear play with a twist. There's enough of that play style already to the point where I am surprised that anyone has ever complained about it in this variant. The only reason I can think of anyone bitching about the built in privateer alliance is that it affects the plague of automatic friendship alliances and overgrowth of carebear farms.

C'mon folks there's gotta be more perspectives on this than just RUFF?

http://vdiplomacy.com/variants.php?variantID=66

One of the things I found difficult was the visibility of the territories, particularly for some of those small islands, another was that I found it difficult to distinguish the differences visually between the clipper and the frigate units.

What are "carebear play" and "carebear farms"?

Carebear play is the general name for any strategy aiming to draw with allies over going for the win. Carebear Farms is the name of the industry dedicated to growing these players and feeding them to RUFFHAUS to quench his thirst for SCs.

Ha ha!

Hmm so I haven't played this map as perhaps I should have but ignoring the issue some people have with the privateers verse their homeland counties, the main issue people have is the clippers retreating two spaces correct?

if thats the case the main issue for that complaint is probably that they could commonly retreat into an sc and get a build from a player that dislodged them correct? What if instead you left the retreat at two spaces but made it so clippers could not capture sc's? or at least non neutral sc's thus representing that the populations of these towns can defend themselves from a small clipper but not a frigate?

that would probably be hard to code, part of me is thinking that a cheat around it would be all claimed sc's (or all sc's) are given a unit rating of 1 even when they have no unit in it. or something like that... Either way just a thought, it would make frigates more useful then only being better when attacking verse a unit that has twice the movement speed (do they also have double range support power?)

I think retreating clippers to only go 1 spot is far easier to code. Aside from that, the privateers not being able to stab their protector nation and vice versa (which I will not "fix" as that's a core aspect of the game), is there any other issues apart from Kaner who can't work out how to look at the large map to solve his problem?

Amby, it looks modifying the clippers' retreat to one space would remove the glitch that allows them to retreat into the vacated space they were dislodged from. And while it would remove some of the rather dicey chaos in the retreats phase that embodies the pirates variant, it's a sensible trade off. It makes some sense that a dislodged unit is in disorder and perhaps unable to take advantage of it's full movement potential during retreat.

As I recall there may have been some quirky territory adjacency issues, but I have no specific examples. I guess we have very few active players who have experienced the pirates map. Actually wouldn't it be an interesting map to bourse with? You know, booty call and all?!

Oh boy, Bourse Pirates would be amazing.

Ahoy mateys, Bourse Afloat!

Add in the supply-demand buy-sell currency dynamic and it could be a hit!

Smh who conquered the Poles already

I'd be happy to run the next bourse game on the Pirates! variant if that is what people would like.

Bourse Pirates would have to have additional rules - Countries can't trade in other countries' privateers maybe?

I've only played a few but biggest problem for me is the map. To many small spaces, some simplification could be in order. Next the 2 space retreat usually turns victory for one into defeat for another.

The chaos induced by the two space retreat is actually very interesting, and creates constant alliance shifting and speculation. The problem was allowing it to retreat to the space the attacking unit vacates. For example (see map link below) a unit in Veracruz dislodges a clipper in Campeche. The retreating clipper retreats to Veracruz via Eastern Bay of Campeche. In some instances this occurs whether Eastern Bay of Campeche is occupied or not. If there is an effort to fix anything it would be to prevent this situation.

http://www.vdiplomacy.com/variants.php?variantID=66


Strider, can you elaborate on what the issue with small spaces is?

The privateer rule is a great wrinkle, which allows a lot of creative play. I wouldn't mess with it at all. Bourse is already metagame by design and it's complex enough as is without tinkering with it.

Small spaces and the clarity of map is the issue. Units are bigger than some spaces. The colour patch indicating what counrty the unit is is also unclear. I found I needed to constantly reffer to either large map and in some cases the unit position. The map schematic was also required to determine how to move and the multitude of retreates made game play tedious, especially with the clippers. Why would you have any advantage when deffeted in sea battle to skip around the map rather limp awayas should be expected. The comparison to Chaos is irrelevant. The interesting novelty wore off very quickly for me.
As such a varient that I don't consider playing despite the fact that Pirates is a very appealing senario.

See map info for island triple of St Eu ,St Martin and St Kitt. Many more instances with small islands and ports that make identifying unit placement type and nationality problematic.

Yeah, I'm not referring to Chaos the variant at all, nor is there any comparison offered at all. I'm saying that the retreats phases is chaotic because clippers are flying all over the place, and it creates chaotic behavior and treachery. You know kinda of like *pirates* would employ? The answer to your question about allowing clippers extra movement is obvious. They are faster ships with greater movement range. Defeat in combat does not necessarily mean dazed and confused. The larger issue is allowing defeated units to profit at the specific expense of the victorious unit. The variant is called "Pirates". If you leave your centers open you should expect dastardly and opportunistic retreats. Two space retreats into an uncontested space is opportunistic. Two space retreats across the battle lines of defeat is unrealistic, and contrary to the basic mechanic of the game of Diplomacy.

Many variants require the use of the larger map to address names, adjacency, and unit placement. I do not disagree that it's confusing. However, this is not unique to the Pirates map, and it probably requires an entire map redraw to correct. Since the large map of this and other variant avoid many of these issues I suspect that there are technical benefits to the website of using the smaller maps as defaults, with the larger maps offered as alternates.

@RUFF - I think you misunderstand how the 2-space retreat works. The original rule that you cannot retreat to the space that dislodged you still stands, so a unit dislodged from Vera Cruz cannot retreat into Vera Cruz.

The way it's coded is not technically two moves, it's one move, but territories two spaces away are considered adjacent for Clippers. That's why they can 'jump' over other units.

Captain, I'm not misunderstanding how it works. In previous Pirates games, retreating units have been allowed to retreat to the space where the unit which dislodged them originated from. If it's been corrected since, then I withdraw my complaint. If you are saying that the present coding allows clippers to 'jump' over existing units on the map (in movement or retreat), then the problem is bigger than described, and absolutely needs to be fixed. The two space move itself has never been a problem. The balance between 2 strength attacking frigates and 2 space moving clippers provides a truly unique and intriguing gaming landscape. Allowing clippers to fly over units is another variant altogether. If the intent is meant to allow Flying Duchmen clippers, then the variant description detailing the movement abilities of clippers needs to better illustrate the features.

http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=30914

Gents, if we can organise clippers to retreat only 1 space this should fix the issue. I take it some players like the crazy nature of still having clippers retreat 2 spaces, but from what i'Ve heard in this thread and in games, I think the 1 space clipped retreat is the way to go.

Amby, after reading the discussion here my advice would be to experiment with one or the other. Limiting clippers to a one space retreat might be the easier fix. Yet, my concern with this approach is that it may go too far in removing the balance in the frigate/clipper make up of units. Additionally if what Captainmeme is saying is correct, the Flying Dutchman maneuver still exists as an option during movement phases. From my perspective (love/hate) of the Pirates variant fixing this glitch its the primary solution, and clipping the clipper retreat to one space is unnecessary while leaving some serious problems uncorrected.

Does anyone have any examples of a game where the "Flying Dutchman" occurs? eg the dislodged player could retreat to where the attacker came from? That would help isolate the problem.

I tried going back through my games, but the ability to scrool games and then find the specific occurrences seems like thousands of clicks. I wish I had made notes. Can we open up a test game in a lab?

Great idea. I'll check in with Flame to test that, but shouldn't be a problem.

Does Pirates achieve the 2-move thing simply by making those spaces directly linked for clippers? Or is it something fancier?

@ruff, when you open up one of your old games scroll down to the bottom of the page. You'll see an 'archive' section. Click on the 'maps' button. That will give you a page displaying all of the maps in one place