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Greatdjenkins (985 D)
04 Jan 18 UTC
I'm better than everyone
No one can beat me it's like your all tiny, puny ants, and I'm the giant that squashes you haha. Fight me puny crybaby girls. Come at meeeeee!!!!!this me
5 replies
Open
Flame (1058 D (B))
26 Nov 17 UTC
(+2)
Punic Wars COMING soon!
Punic Wars based on Sail Ho variant.
Coming soon.

http://lab.diplomail.ru/variants.php?variantID=201
15 replies
Open
BenjaminHester (1035 D)
21 Nov 17 UTC
Sengoku Nagashino Feedback Thread
Hi Sengoku Nagashino players - please deposit your thoughts here for designer digestion as the first round of games resolves.

Please do not directly comment on the situation/players etc. of any active games. Please limit your comments to the variant design itself, as it appears at gamestart. Once a game has completed, it is fair game for analysis, but not before please.
pleased to see that none of the positions seem significantly unbalanced, at least not with glaring problems. all positions seem to have at least one instance of a positive outcome thus far.
In the full press game, I think Oda has an advantage over gunboat. A good press player can work it to his favor and pick up lots of independent SCs quicker because of the greater starting position than the others. If he gets the others fighting each other he can quickly grow to the point of being unstoppable.

Of course, in gunboat, the opposite happens because he becomes an early target and can't use his forked tongue to talk his way out of it and cheat death. :-)
Flame (1058 D (B))
30 Nov 17 UTC
Reduce Oda's starting SCs to 5
tantrumizer (1427 D)
30 Nov 17 UTC
In the Gunboat game just finished, I think the 2 pairs of minnows in the west and east started fighting each other and Oda steamrolled through. Everyone fought back well, but the end result was a 5-way draw, which is a little unsatisfactory. I'm not sure if it would always play out like that though, but I felt as Mori that I was in a fight to the death with my other small neighbour right from the start. And when Oda was finally coralled, I had turned my eye back to attacking Shimazu again, but it seemed too risky.

I'd support Flame's suggestion.

I was also wondering if it is deliberate that the armies can do the coastal moves, just like the fleets. I remember someone mentioning the rules should be clarified to say that they can't, but if I recall correctly, they were allowed by the engine.
BenjaminHester (1035 D)
30 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
It is intentional that the armies can do the coastal moves as well as the fleets. Small scale ferrying actions, particularly in the west were common to the era, and are also necessary for map balance.

One thing that I am not seeing much of (that I expected to) is players supporting neutral armies to hold as buffers. This is a critical element of containment in the design, both as a strategy to deter Oda from heading towards a specific peripheral power, and for Oda to defend against a strong alliance of either the northern or southern pair. This is both historical (the spiderweb of minor daimyo alliances) and for balance. The peripheral powers need to view and use at least some of the neutral armies as their own for containment, even if that delays their own growth slightly. The starting unit count of three for peripheral powers is intentional with this in mind.

It is also definitely intended by design that if Shimazu and Mori fight each other, and Uesugi and Hojo do the same, that Oda definitely should steamroll to a quick victory. Likewise, there is extremely high border tension built into those peripheral pairs (exacerbated even more so by the coastal rules) so that they assume high risk when they do work together.

All that to say, reducing Oda to 5 is definitely on the table if the playtests demonstrate a need, but a significant number of the games I'm spectating right now suggest that it may not be necessary, either in gunboat or full press. The two that have been finished so far certainly had positive outcomes for Oda, but that is not the case elsewhere. More to follow on that when other games finish, we can't discuss the specifics of those yet.
One other change I am considering to throw out for consideration. I may remove the Kumano Sea Zone altogether and make that area coastal, such that Oda could claim Tosa on in the first season. I am concerned that I am seeing Oda move against Mori, Uesugi, and Hojo, but not against Shimazu. I think I may have inadvertently made that expansion route less accessible than the others, and the intent is to give Oda as equal an incentive as possible to attack any of their four peripheral neighbors.
one final note before I shut up and listen for responses: note the positioning of Oda's six starting units/SCs and the impact on balance. They have two SCs on the western coast, and two on the eastern. They have one army oriented north (Mino) and one army oriented south (Yamashiro.) Removing any of these may have a profound effect on influencing Oda to favor attacking the northern peripheral powers or the southern ones, and the design is intended to give Oda equal incentive to choose either route.
Shah (2112 D)
30 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
I do not think you should remove the Kumano Sea Zone. The map, as it is, favors building armies over fleets, and if you make that area another coastal zone, it further reduces the need for fleets.
This is true. In dealing with the linear nature of any map of Japan and the intent of creating an asymmetric variant, this design probably does favor armies over fleets. I had hoped with only eight truly landlocked SCs, this would not be the case, but the limited need for convoys does devalue fleets somewhat.

But...I still need Oda to be able to reach Shimazu more easily (and vice versa!)

Any suggestions on how I could increase the value of fleets in the variant? Or offset the addition of a coastal sea zone (really, all coastal sea zones) to make fleets more appealing as a build option? I suppose taking away chaos builds is one option. *That* would certainly make building fleets necessary, particularly towards the endgame.

Getting some great feedback in this thread from all posters, very appreciated.
excuse me - coastal areas, not coastal sea zones. I need to be careful with my terminology to avoid rules confusion. Coastal areas are not zones at all.
tantrumizer (1427 D)
30 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
Can armies retreat to anywhere they can move? If they couldn't, it could boost the power of fleets a bit. With the retreat options, I was too scared to hit the high seas and leave my dots unoccupied in the case of sneaky retreats.
BenjaminHester (1035 D)
30 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
Yes, for reasons of simplicity (and coding also I think) we have only one definition of adjacency. If you can move there, you can retreat there. That said, sneaky retreats (IMHO) are fun, and intentional part of the design and the historical era.

Allow me to share with you the story of Amago Katsuhisa. Once the powerful lords of Izumo province and rivals of Mori Motonari, the Amago clan suffered defeat from in-fighting and the military prowess of the Mori. Katsuhisa himself fled to the Wako (loosely, pirate) island of Oki after his father and grandfather were killed by a relative and the Mori drove him from the mainland. Katsuhisa would later return at the head of an army and conquer Tajima and Inaba provinces in the name of Oda Nobunaga's successor, Toyotomi Hideyoshi. Mori's allies, the Kobayakawa and Kikkawa, defeated Amago in Mori's name, and eventually became powerful daimyo in their own right after the Mori clan submitted to Hideyoshi.

All that to say, the daimyo of this period were shuffled around - a lot. Of the five players in this variant, Shimazu and Mori alone would retain their ancestral holdings at the end of the Sengoku Jidai, and then only under the authority of the Tokugawa shogun.
The message board on Kamikaze Coastlines was extremely heartwarming
http://vdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=33085

Oda won with ease in this full press playtest. :-) Take what you will out of it, but I think any moderately skilled diplomat can talk the ends into fighting and get a solo.
slypups (1570 D)
18 Dec 17 UTC
Played two press games. The second one flamed out when one player missed two moves and we agreed to cancel the game. This map is a disaster if a player misses moves - it unbalances very easily.
In the first game, I think the players were figuring out the mechanics, but the minnows to either side of Oda united and beat him from both sides, and one minnow strategically gobbled up his partner at just the right time when he was a bit behind in growth.
In press, Oda has a lot of opportunity to sow dissent and at least be in the end-game, if not outright win. But if the sides stick to their early alliances until Oda is more even sized with them, Oda will probably get knocked out as center position is generally more disadvantageous.

I like how this map gives the player in the center a head-start to offset this standard disadvantage of center positions. Interesting dynamic. I wouldn't change anything yet - need more playtime with this one. But I would advise the bookends to stick together at least until they catch up in size to Oda - otherwise asking for trouble. And if one of the bookends decide to fight each other early - easy win for Oda.
Now now, let's not be influencing ongoing games by telling the little guys what they need to do. I'm sure they can figure that out on their own. :-) Plus, us Oda lovers don't need any more challenges thrown our way.
The variant isn't very forgiving of NMRs or order errors, that's true. Kind of a signature on most of my variants that hostilities start almost immediately between players, there's not much build up before you come into direct contact (and conflict) with each other.
Four solos for Oda already in the playtests. I may have to revisit Flame's suggestion above.
Yeah, Oda is as strong as any two nations at the start and holds one third of the starting SCs. That is too much. The other option would be to make everyone else start with 4 SCs.
Flame (1058 D (B))
19 Dec 17 UTC
Or ODA with 5
CCR (1672 D)
03 Jan 18 UTC
@Oli
Fix adjacency: Mino x Totomi
In a recent game, my army Mino had a retreat option to Totomi (10), but these provinces should not connect to each other.
I see Mino cam support hold Totomi too. That is a definite bug.
I just had the most inexplicable thing happen. I ordered Army Izumo to Bungo. Clicked save in the afternoon, clicked preview (on desktop computer). The arrows correctly showed the army in Izumo moving to Bungo (with two supports.) Checked *again* on smartphone just before the deadline, as these were stab orders - clicked preview again. The arrows indicated the correct intended moves. Results are posted, and Army Izumo moves to Bingo instead. In both previous orders previews, Bingo was (as intended) completely vacant (no arrows pointed to this location) - I noted this specifically, as I was concerned about that spot as a potential retreat for another unit (Shimazu unit in Awa.)

I am completely baffled. I checked and re-checked this order set twice before the deadline, on two different devices, and used the preview feature both times to ensure the orders were entered correctly. If I had just entered the orders and clicked save, I would have assumed I made an error. But there was simply too much QC and redundancy here for that to be possible. Bug report submitted - thinking maybe something happened with the mobile site? Or is there something else I'm supposed to do that I did not? (I didn't click "ready" but then I never have in the past either, only save - and have not had problems.)

This result horribly skews the playtest - on the most critical order of the most critical turn I have had in this game :-(
Bungo, Bingo. Similar names...
true, if this were PBEM, I would assume that's what happened. But when I'm looking at arrows pointing at a map in preview, the province might as well be called peanut butter - the arrow was pointing at the correct place.
Flame (1058 D (B))
05 Jan 18 UTC
Benjamin, we got 4 solos for Oda in the end. Why are you against to reduce start-centres for Oda to 5?
Not firmly against it, but not yet convinced it is a good change.

1 - one of those four Oda solos is a heavily rules-modded game (13 SC win count) that has no real value in evaluating the variant.

2 - there are several more games ongoing now where Oda is not at all running away with it. I think after a period of initial familiarization, repeat players are gaining a greater understanding of the asymmetric map and effective strategies re: Oda. (they're learning to pass on some stab opportunities against their peripheral neighbors.) This variant is designed to play very differently from symmetric/parity variants (~90+% of existing variants) and it's understandably taking a second for players to break old habits. I still don't see many peripheral players choosing to support border neutrals to contain Oda while they build up their own strength. This and other valid strategies for checking Oda growth largely remain unexplored.

3 - if there is a need to rein in Oda's overall strength level, I think there may be more effective ways to do it, that also accomplish some other tweaks I would like to make (namely, improving the effective distance/access between the Shimazu and Oda starting positions) Also, Oda's starting SCs and units are very precisely selected with the intent of giving them equal incentive to focus against Uesugi/Hojo or Shimazu/Mori. (Note: I think perhaps I don't have this quite right yet, Oda seems to consistently lean towards Uesugi/Hojo.) But also notice the specifics of their start position - one fleet on each coast, two armies oriented towards each peripheral pair. I have considered dropping Oda to five, but have not found a way (even with significant border redraws) to create equal incentive to engage either peripheral pair when doing so. So I am leaning towards nerfing Oda (slightly) through other methods.

All this to say, I'm not blowing you off, I'm just still evaluating the variant. After an initial surge (as expected), Oda's results appear to be on the decline now, and I want to observe that more. I had a very good run as Mori going myself until a (bug? orders botch? still have no idea what happened) just hopelessly skewed that game's value for evaluating the variant. Very frustrated right now.
also, ubercacher's solo as Oda was in a gunboat game, which also favors Oda heavily. So for evaluation purposes, I'm considering that I have seen two solid Oda solos, and several games where Oda is either on the ropes, or at least roughly equal to the other positions.
(not trying to take anything away from ubercacher's accomplishment there, it was a solid win. just saying I'm considering full press/rulebook press games more heavily for variant design purposes than gunboat. that's all.


29 replies
Greatdjenkins (985 D)
30 Dec 17 UTC
what happened to our game argentinaen empire
whats the deal, i cant find the game anymore.
3 replies
Open
BobRoss (1752 D)
03 Jan 18 UTC
Still looking for replacements (3 games)
Other obligations make it impossible for me to play my games as they ought to be played.
1 reply
Open
gopher27 (1226 D Mod)
30 Dec 17 UTC
Deep philosophical question about American culture
So I teach at a major public research university. And I keep noticing that my male students in their early 20s seem with a surprisingly high probability to be intimately familiar with the movie Don't Be a Menace to South Central While Drinking Your Juice in the Hood. This movie came out when I was in high school. And at the same time, they seem ignorant of In Living Color which is readily available on Youtube. So why DBAMTSCWDYJITH and not, for example, I'm Gonna Git You Sucka?
6 replies
Open
The Ambassador (1612 D (B) (B))
08 Dec 17 UTC
Drunk postings only
This forum thread is for VDip players to post when they are a little bit pissed.
37 replies
Open
Oli (977 D Mod (P))
01 Jan 18 UTC
(+2)
Happy new year
No new year thread here...?
Wish you all a happy new year.
2 replies
Open
JECE (1184 D)
18 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
Is there a new mobile website?
It looks great, but could I turn it off? I use a BlackBerry Passport, which has a nice big screen and doesn't need it.
101 replies
Open
Chumbles (1082 D)
24 Dec 17 UTC
(+2)
Merry Christmas!
Have a brilliant Christmas day - it's already started in Oz!
11 replies
Open
brainbomb (681 D)
23 Dec 17 UTC
Mafia II vdip signup
So I was thinking id run an 11-14 player game starting in January. Probably the 5th or 6th. Any vdippers up for some mafia? Setup TBA.
3 replies
Open
Monkey (985 D)
22 Dec 17 UTC
Im soooo cool
im the best and no one can take me downnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
17 replies
Open
BobRoss (1752 D)
23 Dec 17 UTC
Looking for replacements
Hi all. Due to personal circumstances i will be entering an indefinite vdip hiatus and thus i'm looking for replacements.
1 reply
Open
Grahamso1 (1497 D)
20 Dec 17 UTC
(+1)
Game set up - NMR
I want to set a game so that it never processes a turn with out orders. I think that is setting “Turn” = 0.
But if I set “Delay”= 2 does that mean a two day/phase pause before that player is kicked? Or is he kicked immediately and there are 2 days for a replacement to appear. In the latter case what happens after the 2 days?
7 replies
Open
slypups (1570 D)
17 Dec 17 UTC
(+1)
Proof that victory stats can be deceiving
At least with a small sample size. http://vdiplomacy.com/stats.php?variantID=75&variantID=93
Does this mean Yellow starts at a disadvantage on this map?
11 replies
Open
RagingIke297 (991 D)
17 Dec 17 UTC
Any mods around that can pause a game?
I'm spectating this game http://www.vdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=33196#gamePanel. And about half the countries are about to NMR, anyone around to stop this from happening?
1 reply
Open
Captainmeme (1400 D Mod (B))
16 Dec 17 UTC
Looking for replacements for two good positions
Germany in Furnace of Affliction (gameID=31823) and a strong position in an anonymous Imperial game. PM for details.
1 reply
Open
Devonian (1871 D)
10 Dec 17 UTC
¿alguien quiere jugar un partido en español?
Yo quiero aprender la español y piense que a jugar en la idoma es un buen manera a aprender.

¿Hay otros que quiero jugar en español?
21 replies
Open
GOD (1711 D Mod (B))
23 Sep 17 UTC
Balkans 1860 variant
Is it just me, or is Italy way too overpowered?
91 replies
Open
Captainmeme (1400 D Mod (B))
05 Dec 17 UTC
(+1)
France vs Austria Openings Tier List & Guide
https://captainmeme.wordpress.com/2017/12/05/france-vs-austria-openings/
0 replies
Open
Oli (977 D Mod (P))
26 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
Imperium-variant might work again...
I did some work on the adjudicator and this might work again.
Not a very balanced variant, but has a really interesting start..
24 replies
Open
BobRoss (1752 D)
31 Aug 17 UTC
(+2)
Variant Tournaments Results & Ranking
As the Variant Tournament thread was getting clogged i thought it'd be a good idea to separate the organisational and ranking part.
47 replies
Open
BenjaminHester (1035 D)
11 Aug 17 UTC
(+5)
obsolete Sengoku variant
Hi all, designer of Sengoku here. I would love to get the latest version of Sengoku in use on this system, as it is much more balanced. Found here: http://dipwiki.com/index.php?title=Sengoku
Even if the DP system, can't be used, the version at http://nairenvorbeck.angelfire.com/ is still better than the one in use currently. Poor Mori needs a fair chance :-) Anyone willing/able to help me get these implemented?
89 replies
Open
Grahamso1 (1497 D)
26 Nov 17 UTC
Extending the pre game time
Is it possible to extend the time while waiting for players in a game I created? If so how? Thanks
3 replies
Open
Enriador (1491 D (B))
19 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
It's time to talk about Scoring
Hello all!

Let's talk about scoring? More specifically, about whether the dreaded Points Per Supply Center (PPSC) scoring should remain an option?
98 replies
Open
Major Problems (1070 D)
23 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
1 v 1 games on variant maps
I am not a coder (sic) so I was wondering how hard is/was it to code 1 v 1 games? Is it reasonable to think that variant maps (Modern, Ancient Med, etc) could be set up to create 1 v 1 games? The idea of having a larger group of countries to play against each other is intriguing. I just don't know if it possible, or doable.
2 replies
Open
Grahamso1 (1497 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
(+2)
How old school are you?
I am not very tech savvy so forgive me. I think I started dip on some RSS pages using Netscape at work in maybe 1996(?) does that make sense? All email based through Judges. What were they called? USDJ or something. I remember FROG but they all spoke French. Haha. I used to stand outside my office in the snow smoking a cig with a hand drawn map with about 100 crossing out for each phase using coloured pens. Ah web based interactive maps?!?! Luxury!!!
5 replies
Open
Jamie_T (895 D)
20 Nov 17 UTC
Notices
The notices on my front page are all jumbled up in a random order. PMs from weeks ago are at the top, and some of my game messages from the past day or two are lower down. Is anyone else noticing this?
9 replies
Open
Enriador (1491 D (B))
09 Oct 17 UTC
Napoleonic Variant, and the lack of neutral centers
I had the honor to play 'Napoleonic' back in the lab (an awful game as Spain by the way). I had a question back then which I ask here and now:

Why there are no neutral supply centers?
23 replies
Open
The Ambassador (1612 D (B) (B))
20 Mar 17 UTC
Fixing the Pirates variant
With the new Lab up and running, as discussed in the DiplomacyGames podcast I'm keen to iron out the bugs in Pirates that people hate...
51 replies
Open
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