Agreed on all counts - I don't recall the circumstances around the extend vote, I pretty much automatically vote when I see that someone has requested it, and I don't know how I missed it or otherwise failed to do so. I apologize.

@DL. Yes, pause/extend are there for several reasons. The main one is to avoid the Mods get snowed under a ton of pause/extend requests.
So next time, I suggest you to call Mods telling them how long you'll be away. In my experience, they grant pause/extend most of the times.
The point is that pause/extend are not diplomatic tools and nobody should try to take advantage, refusing to vote, over a player who's basically saying he's about to miss turn(s)
Rule 5: http://www.vdiplomacy.com/rules.php

Since I also usually play gunboats, you may like my next further suggestion.
When in a gunboat someone asks for pause/extend and the vote fails, I take note of those who didn't vote for it and put them in a blacklist. One time has no consequences, but over a certain limit, it must be a habit and I block them. I won't ever meet such players anymore.
I do the same with players who miss turns and didn't ask neither for pause/extend nor for a sitter on the Forum.

Thanks for the advice Guaroz, but not a big issue.

As I said, I managed not to miss phases anyway, I would never block Z3r0, DavrosMaster42 or Dr. Recommended because of that, nor I considered to bother the Mods for that.

I just wanted to point out the problem to my opponents “a posteriori”. A bit of Forum discussion can be a good opportunity to remove some dust from the rules page, for them and for whoever reads the Forum.

May I ask something?
-Is a person allowed to open a thread/PM involved players stating the reasons of which he needed the pause/extend in a gunboat?

I suppose not, we should never talk about on-going games in the Forum.
The Modforum is the proper place.

I wonder Guaroz if if you also put players on a balcklist who use lengthy pauses and extensions for exploitation reasons, i.e. to to delay the game long enough that players become bored and vote for premature draws? This does go on rather regularly, just as players who exhaust the entire deadline for retreats and disbands, marking "saved" when there are no options and so forth. It's cheeky gamesmanship to be sure, but it goes both ways.

I agree with the notion that it's polite to vote for a requested delay within reason. , and if good cause is given for the delay. Obviously this becomes more difficult with gunboat games. In the end the extend and pause features are put to a vote with parameters for their passage. Extend requests need a super majority (2/3) of the players to pass, while pauses need a unanimous agreement. I would hope that most issues on this could be resolved under the extablished procedures, and that no one would involve the moderators for an extend unless it was a dire emergency (hopitalization, death, severe illness, etc). Trips to the Alps for 3 weeks of skiing and debauchery, expeditions to the Amazon jungles (and I've played online Diplomacy from the Amazon jungles by the way), or month off for Christmas break, are not what I would consider examples of legitimate extension requests that players should be blacklisted or ridiculed for not voting for.

While I agree that exhausting 'the entire deadline for retreats and disbands, marking "saved" when there are no options and so forth' is irritating, it is also entirely within the rules.
For my part, I try to think it is being used in order to avoid going CD. In fact, I did so in a few occasions (and in one case I had to do it several times in a row). So, I try not to judge (though I have to admit that I suspect these "accidents" to happen more often to players in bad situations).

The fact is that... I don't want to explain my pause/extend votes reasons; to be honest, I don't even want to hear about my opponents' pause/extend votes reasons…

…and if ever I would want to, how would I explain or hear those reasons in a gunboat??

The simplest solution is: GRANT PAUSES, GRANT EXTENDS, always.
There’s nothing to lose.

On the other hand, there are several ways available for you to handle a suspect abuse of the pause/extend buttons.

Well, I don't want to have to explain my pause/extend votes either. But the "fact" is that if you do not give a good reason for altering the prearranged schedule of the game, then you do not deserve a pause/extend. And no player that votes against the measure should be blacklisted or ridiculed for not accepting such a change.

The simplest solution is NOT to always grant pauses and extends. And if it were, then why would there be a vote for it in the frist place? They are best handled on a case by case basis. Voting for these games stoppages is a courtesy, not a requirement, and there is nothing unsportsmanlike for not doing so, particularly if a good reason is not given.

To answer how you would address it in a gunboat game is not up to me to say. That's up to you. I dont ask for extensions and pauses, so they do not concern me. If I did have an issue that necessitated one, I would provide an explanation as to why this was, as a courtesy to my fellow players. If the game was a gunboat game I would do the same. If you're suggesting that the fact that explaining my reason would out me because of similar reasons listed for other games, then that's a red herring. Anyone can put two and two together and see an X day extend request in one game then again an X day request in a gunboat game. And then you're outed. The simplest solution is do not ask for extensions and pauses. Honor the commitment you made when signing up or find a stand in player.

I disagree with you that there are any methods available to deal with suspected abuse of this behavior. The moderator posting on this very subject above actually endorses such behavior and facilitates it.

@Ruffhaus playing online dip in the amazon rainforest.

Randy, I can really see you making haste just to reach that next internet cafe. :-)

FYI an Extend lasts 4 days.
Once the 2/3 majority approves the extend, the game is stopped at most 4 days. The extend disappears automatically either if 4 days pass or if all the active players ready their orders.

Your premise is weak, Ruffhaus:
“if you do not give a good reason for altering the prearranged schedule of the game, then you do not deserve a pause/extend”

What the hell is the prearranged schedule of a game??

The game in topic is a rather significant sample for a multiplayer game. 10 players, 24h/phase.
The variant page suggests:
Avg. turns played: 23.29 turns *turns are spring and fall*
So, a priori, you may argue that the game was expected to last roughly
24h/phase*5phases/year*23.29 turns*0.5years/turn =
= 58 days =
= 2 months speaking with common sense.
This is more or less the sense of the message after you click the “join” button.
ps: the game was “EXPECTED”, it was never “SCHEDULED”.

I can’t see why 58days are acceptable and 58days + 4days are not: this goes beyond my understanding.
4days out of 2months are the “nothing to lose” that I was talking about in my earlier post.

My premise is not weak at all. The prearranged schedule of the game is the agreed upon number of days between turns that everyone agreed to when signing up for the game. That's what the hell it is. Are you that daft, or trying to use strawman arguments to build up your flimsy argument?

You go on to run a bizarre array of calcutated mathematics that have nothing to do with the subject of extensions at all. None of these game are set up to play to a specific end date, and no one cares what day specifically the games will end on. The game ends when it's been played out to a solo or an unanimous draw. The forecasted length of the game in days is an estimated factor with far too many variables to even get into. It does of course help stray the discussion away from the facts at hand though, so bravo.

The issue of extending the game or not has nothing to do with 58 days vs. 62 days. And no one is suggesting that that is an ordeal that cannot be endured. And you might know this if you were not such a narcissist. What makes you think that you are the only one that would ask for etensions in the game? What if every player needs an extention? Then that's +40 days to your illustrious timeline. What if some players need more than one extension. Once again though, that's not the point.

The point is that if you dont give a valid reason for needing the extension, then don't expect players to vote for them, and don't come around crying foul play because they did not. Extension and pause requests are routinely used here as stall tactics by players for a variety of reasons to affect the dynamics of the ongoing diplomacy, most commonly just to bore the remianing players into voting for premature draws. Because of this it seems very fair and reasonable to offer a valid reason for needing an extension, and accepting the decision of 2/3 of the players with respect to that.

I vote for all extensions that players give a valid reason for. While Vacations and the like are not likey to recieve sympathy from me, but once again if a player handles the situation respectably, he's likely to get his wish. The internet is everywhere these days and VDiplomacy can be played very effectively on mobile phones.

The games are set up with options to vote for these circumstances, and it seems clear to me that a vote option was put into place for a reason. While it's unfortunate that you were denied a request for an extension, you had your vote, and an opportunity to lobby for it. I do not think that its proper to chastise the players that did not vote for it, particularly since you gave no rationale for it. It is rather interesting that you took note of such specifics as to which way players voted, and mentioned them in your EOG though.

It is singular that almost every thread where you jump in is suddenly turned into a personal battlefield. Maybe you should ask yourself why.

But I am kind of immune to your fire, Ruffhaus.

“It is rather interesting that you took note of such specifics as to which way players voted, and mentioned them in your EOG though.”
Well, you’re so in a hurry to answer that you didn’t even check the game.
Be informed about what you talk about please.
When I put my extend vote Spain, Egypt, Germany and me were the only still alive. We were in 4, not in 10. I didn’t really need to take note about who voted and who did not.

Now, back to the topic, everything depends on what you consider the priority.

The time schedule is your priority.
Avoiding that people miss phases is mine.

“The pause is there to stop players missing their orders, but is not part of the game. As such pausing or unpausing should not be used for diplomatic gain, such as refusing to unpause unless other players will draw the game. If it is being abused staff may step in to sort it out.“

Re-reading this thread I am inclined to say that my approach is closer to what is written in the rule pages, but I wouldn’t want to appear too… narcissist.

Maybe I should ask myself if I care? However, it strikes me that you were the one that said, "What the hell is the prearranged schedule of a game??" This is not only a stupid question, but one needless set to inflame the discussion. And then as you calim to wear asbestos underwear, you caomplain about the fire that you started. Amusing.

I'm perfectly informed of what I speak. You took the time to take specifc players to task for not voting for your extension request. Whether there were 4 players left or 10 is irrelevant, it's something burning in your mind over the game. You went to great lengths to chastise them for this, even as you admit that you gave them no good reason to support your request.

It's not a matter of priority on my part. The games are set with a schedule to play by that we all agree to. Any efforts to extend those schedules need good reasons. If players choose to disrespect the game by failing to provide ors, get replacement standins, etc., this is not an issue of my priority. It is a matter of their own priorities, and their disregard for the game that they joined.

Your approach is no closer to the rules than the moon is. The rules do not manadate that players vote for an extension request just because said request is. The fact that you want them too, and think they should is again, irrelavent, and yes, rather narcisissistic. What gives you the right to demand extentions at the whim of Decima Legio? No reasons necessary. The tyrant has spoken. Do as he commands.

The rules quote you provided about pauses is relavant though, shocking as that may be. But as usual you discard the key components of it that do not serve your agenda. First and formost, pauses require a unanimous vote of all players, or a moderator's intervention. And this is with good cause as many of us have learned the hard way. The fact is that both pauses and extensions are being used for Diplomatic exploitation, and the system is correctly design to make them difficult but not impossible to gain. This of course get s back to the way that you could help yourself in recieving schedule extensions/relief in the future, which is to present a valid reason for the request, counting on the sportsmanship of the players to support it. But as you has said already, "The fact is that... I don't want to explain my pause/extend votes reasons," No, you don't. You just want it your way, because you say so. And that's not good enough.

Guys...We're on the internet!
Since nobody can check whether the reasons stated by a person who's asking for a pause/extend are true, they're irrelevant.
A pause request should not become a contest about who invented the best excuse. Also, you may not be able to connect, but you may not be willing to tell your businnes to everyone on the public Forum or on the Global chat. Privacy. Or am I forced to lie and invent an excuse good enough, when I can't log in?

And who would decide if your reasons are true and good enough? Those who are tempted to take advantage from your NMR.
Reasons must be irrelevant. Nobody could ever double-check them, so it must be assumed you got a good reason to ask for a pause. How would you feel if you say your true reason why you can't log in, and someone else says it's not good enough?
Someone who's in the game... are we joking?

Surely there will be someone thinking he can take an unfair advantage asking for a pause.
But I guess that Mods usually grant Pauses because you can't ruin 100 games just because maybe, in 5 of them, the pause-requester **thinks** he could get an advantage. Also, I'm sure that a person like that would be able to lie and provide a good-looking reason for his request. This is a site of professional liars, lol. So why would someone be willing to waste his time reading useless (and possibly false) stuff about someone else's life?

If you like games never paused, you could open your own SRG in which pauses and extensions are forbidden. Or in which every player can ask no more than 'X' days for pauses/extensions (i proposed something like this for 1v1, threadID=33202, both players have the same total time). Players who join the SRG would accept this condition at their own risk. Mods, if asked for a pause, would read the related thread and wouldn't step in to force it. Just my suggestion.
I'd love such a game, because all players would have the same rights. The same goes for regular games: if all the players must have the same rights, pauses can't be decided by those who can take an (unfair) advantage from non-voting. Pauses are not part of the game.

Don't forget that Mods can also UNPAUSE games. Once I asked them so, they found that the players not voting had no reason to do it and they forced unpause.
I also have to say that I see more "sitter wanted" threads on the Forum than pause requests on my games. Perhaps I'm just lucky, but it makes me think that the big issues are extensions, not pauses. I see no reason for not voting extensions! They're short! Is it the 5th extension and the game gets very long? In case, I'll ask a pause/extension as well. I'm not shy. Nobody can be sure about how long a game he joined will last. Anyone could suddenly need a pause/extension, at some point.
In general, the point is that when you don't vote, you ruin the game in 90% of cases (lucky DL's game is in remaining 10%). When you vote you almost never ruin it. You save it.
More in general, when you got an issue and there's little chance your decision could ruin a game, ask Mods first. It's always a good idea. They'll give you good advices and take action when something is going wrong.

- - -

"no player that votes against the measure should be blacklisted" Ruf, I make all blacklists I want and I block whoever I like. It's my right and I do it at my own risk. It has a cost for me, because the more players I block, the less games I can join. It's not for free.

"ridiculed"? I see only people explaining their point of view here. But yes, since you mentioned it, i think that those who try to gain advantages refusing pauses and extensions are ridiculous. Losers.

"then why would there be a vote for it in the frist place?" "The main reason is to avoid the Mods get snowed under a ton of pause/extend requests." Perhaps you just missed this. Or maybe you think that just because they volunteered a bit of their time for hunting Meta/Multi, Mods must waste their whole day stepping into games players aren't able to pause themselves. With the vote, Mods have to deal only with a much smaller percentage of those games.

"The simplest solution is do not ask for extensions and pauses." Oh oh oh!... you'll change your mind the first time you'll need one. :)

"Honor the commitment you made when signing up or find a stand in player." Right, but you forget that this goes for everyone. When you join a game, you don't know when it will end. So what would your problem be with granting pauses if you think you can be committed until the (unknown) end? You can't? Find a sitter or ask for a pause. It goes for everyone.
Diplomacy is not a game in which the first one who need a pause and gets his request rejected has lost, and his neighbours won.

- - -

Lastly, a consideration of mine. It's incredible that so many people complain on Forums about so many games ruined by CDs or NMRs and, notwithstanding this, there are so many people NOT voting for Pauses and Extensions as they're asked. Funny, non-voters are often those who have to gain the most from a NMR.
It's just a different way of cheating (and that's one of the reasons why Rule 5 is) but it's much more hypocritical, IMO, and in Anon games it's a rather coward way to cheat.

- - -

The truth is that we're discussing this issue from the wrong side: "You must have give a reason for asking pause/unpause/extend". Nononono. Absolutely no.

The right side is:
- - You must have a very good reason for non-voting! - -

If you think you have a good reason to refuse a pause/unpause/extend request, it's you the one who has to give a "good reason" for causing a NMR!

These votes have not been given to you to let you know when your opponent is about to miss a turn, so that you can take advantage from it.
Nor to let you know why he needs it and make your judgements about his private life (assuming he wants to tell you a reason and it's the truth). Guys, the reasons are the same each time: I'm going to have no internet / I'm going to have a week too busy to play. Do you want to know more details? Busybody meddler? Peeping Tom? How many requester would just tell you a lie just to shut you up.
Nor these votes have been given to let you screw another player's RR.
Votes and Reliability Rating. All these features are about preventing NMRs.

Rule 5 says "The pause is there to stop players missing their orders". It's about preventing NMRs!
If you think someone is abusing it, whether asking it or refusing it, you call the mods and explain why, because "If it is being abused staff may step in to sort it out."
Take the law into your own hands is WRONG! The Mods are there to investigate possible abuses.

I wonder how many features and rules Oli has yet to release before everyone understand that NMRs are wrong, screw games and ruin everyone's fun.

My agenda?
What are you talking about?
I am not selfish. This early-game extend vote is written black on white. I was Poland.
(To: Global, from Gamemaster) - Spring, 1996: GameMaster: Per 2/3 majority vote the gamephase got extended by 4 days.
(Voters: Turkey / Italy / Ukraine / Russia / Poland / France / Spain)

I didn’t require the extend explanations from Russia, or Germany, or whoever it was in need for an extend. I just GRANTED that.
No mod was harassed for that. No one suffered the issue of time schedule. No one talked about an on-going gunboat on the Forum.

Oh, damn, I missed Guaroz's post

Guaroz post is very spot-on on this issue.
Since the institution of the "extend"-vote the workload on the mods was cut down significantly.

The idea of the extend is meant to prevent NRMs and spoil the game. Using this as a diplomatic tool is not an option. That's why the mods usually extend games on request. The 3/4-majority is just introduced, so a few minor powers couldn't abuse the system to take a game on hostage indefinitely (and cause more work for the mods again). Using 2/3-majority worked quite well, but I'm willing to change this to something else (1/2 for example, or at least 3 players) if we want to experiment with this option.

The mods can't check the reasons given for an extend because of the nature of the anonymity here. Giving false reasons for a pause/extend is damn easy. We usually decide on the influence the NMR would have on the game, not the reasons why a player needs an extend. We keep in mind how often a player asks for forced extends and will check back with the player if we think the request is unreasonable.