I've never seen Indonesia do well.

i played it once and soloed as Queensland and Indonesia had the capacity to do well, but he stabbed me so he got destroyed :P

As creator of M8 against M8 I agree that SA is in a pretty shitty position and has the potential to be Austria & get eaten up early. That said once i teamed up with SA and took him to 2nd place. Yes he was my bitch but it just goes to show a reliable ally for SA helps a lot. I don't think anyone can say Tas is in a bad position. Ever since reworking the map and giving tas an extra SC it can go for in Antarctica, Tas has been generally playing well in the games.

bump

Ok, I'm half way through my holiday and thank God they have free wifi in Orlando's airport. Long way from home folks! Now we have about a week and a half until I'm back in Oz, but there hasn't been much chat here about the variant for the Best of the Best game beyond discussions from mid June. Sounds like 1 WTA and 1 PPSC game. What do people think about Classic or 1897 for WTA and maybe Karabik for PPSC?

Classic for WTA sounds excellent. 1897 I'm not as hot about. I'm not going to be playing the PPSC one, so I'll withhold my opinion on the matter since it's not relevant.

I don't come to VDip to play classic, we might as well be on WebDip...I'd prefer a variant, I've played so much classic.

I understand that, but Classic is well balanced; for the WTA Best of the Best game I'm not sure what would be a better setting. If there's a balanced variant to fit us in then let me know but I think Classic serves our needs best there.

Classic is balanced? Ask Italy.

Pfft, that's because people play Italy wrong. I've won 17% of my games as Italy and won+drawn >50%. I'll take it if that's gonna be a problem.

I want to play Karibik but I have no interest in PPSC... can we fix this somehow?

I think Karibik might be better for WTA if we really want a winner, since the stalemate line in classic can be a real drag

There are stalemate lines in all games. And I think finding and using them is the whole point. Just my opnion, but what I find makes WTA fun.

President, care to explain how to play Italy right? Quoting stats is not an explanation.

In short: You work with Russia in the east against Austria and Turkey (one at a time of course), get the forces to take southern France, stab Russia for the win. Alternatively you open hard against France with Germany and come into the East afterward.

yeah but classic has one of the most glaring and everyone knows about it, thats why I dont care for it, although i do remember the first time I won on classic that was fun :)

...most glaring what?

stalemate line, plus even if you didnt know where it is, you can find pictures on the internet of the line

President, that's a tall order...
And why should Russia ally with you instead of the more stabbable Turkey?

Because (a) that IS the stab of Turkey and (b) Turkey is better at stabbing Russia than vice versa and, should Turkey beat Russia to the punch, Turkey is an existential threat to Russia. Italy does not have the same capacity to stab as Turkey.

Shep, the stalemate line is good. It adds an element to strategy. Why is this a negative? Shouldn't players be able to band together to stop the leader?

"stab Russia for the win"
"Italy does not have the same capacity to stab as Turkey."

Care to explain?

yeah but theres no strategy when we all know where it is

but my dislike of the stalemate line comes from my whole offense is the best defense viewpoint and the fact that I think its more fun to stop somebody by laying waste to their territory and conquering them, instead of holding a boring static line (plus it allows me the possibility of the win :D)

"Care to explain?"

Yeah. Italy's capable of stabbing for the win. It's not as capable as Turkey, but it's capable. Turkey, meanwhile, gets bigger than Italy does when the south/southeast is resolved (Turkey at 11, Italy at 10), and its builds are a couple years closer to Russia's homeland than Italy's. Turkey can stab MUCH easier. Italy's level of risk is acceptable; Turkey's really isn't (or is only just).

Shep: Sure there is. That means you have to figure out how to get past the stalemate line in force while securing your own half instead of just blitz in a direction until you win when your opponents KNOW where the stalemate line is. You have to be a more capable diplomat. Taking the stalemate line out only reduces the level of diplomatic ability necessary to win. There's no getting around it.

And "offense is the best defense" is not necessarily true all the time. It doesn't apply to Diplomacy as it stands; you're just looking to change it to make it apply.

Finally I don't find the stalemate line boring. In fact, the stalemate line is singlehandedly responsible for some of the most climactic and exciting tactical play the game has to offer.

It would be interesting to play WTA Classic (it is the most balanced dip game) 48hours phase.

I agree with President Eden about Italy...Italy is slightly harder to play than other powers but it can be done. I even won one game with Italy without any allies in the game. It much depend on the people who are in the game. I found Turkey harder to play than Italy. Everyone one to be friend with Italy in the beginning, and no one will attack him except if Western triple forms. Turkey on the other hand have very hard job to find allies. Austria and Italy most of the times go for lepanto, and if that is the case only ally is Russia, but if Turkey openly ally with Russia, than everyone starts to panic about jugg and that alliance is pressed from all sides. Russia tend to profit from jugg more than Turkey and many times Russia joins AI to take out Turkey in hope he will establish friendly relations with Italy and launch wintergreen against Austria after Turkey is gone.

So how to play with Italy with success. You have one or two years in which no one will attack you. use that time to expand and establish relations with someone (better with everyone except your target). Most important thing is to stop Austria and Turkey to becomes friendly, or you will be blocked. If AT start attack on Russia you are doomed. Only way to play is to help Russia and there is usually not much profit from it. So make A and T to fight and choose one of them as target. Connect with Russia and form secret pact with him, so when your first target is dead storm the other one with Russia help. Afterwards push fleets west and try to get Portugal. If you manage it you have good chance to win, otherwise you have certain draw. Italy can easily hold southern minimal stalemate position with only about 10 units. Easy :)

Classic is for sure not the most balanced. Look at Pure, that's way more balanced, or Chaoctopi. :)
Anyway, I agree with gobble, some powers have a harder go than others. IMO, Modern is more balanced, and maybe even crowded (Plus, in crowded there can't be a 2-way draw :)

I don't mind playing Italy, its Austria that I can't stand

Oh, I *love* Austria! :D