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airborne (970 D)
13 Dec 11 UTC
Ancient World?
http://www.dipwiki.com/index.php?title=Ancient_World
This seems to be a very balanced map I would however make a few changes if I was to try to put this on this site.
5 replies
Open
mongoose998 (1344 D)
13 Dec 11 UTC
spiral of doom
http://vdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=4714
...
2 replies
Open
Raro (1449 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
New Variant? enhanced naval combat ideas
Hi folks,
I have an idea for a variant that might be able to improve some of our large games, particularly the WWIV map.

Its conception has come from previous discussions particularly about gameplay being affected by lack of sea-zones or ease of setting up a stalemate. Please read below:
Raro (1449 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
There have been past issues where late-game playability has been affected by it being too easy to stalemate sea zones. It is most apparent on the WWIV map and others where oceans separate large continents with each containing multiple powers. I believe this problem is primarily due to the fact that the continents are high-sc-producing warzones, but the sea-zones are made up of disproportionate parcels that do not reflect the same sort of contention except for flexibility and stalemating purposes. This creates an impractical scenario where your ability to succeed on land is determined by an early and thrifty means of closing off sea routes, which is usually gained by first-come-first-service. This of course is a realistic strategy but it is skewed in its practicality and presence on such maps. In reality, embattled sea-zones would require the same sort of costly defense and wouldn’t cause situations where end-game conditions could be ‘locked-in’ so early and easily.

With these large games, WWIV and known-world series, etc., I believe the dynamic that we are trying to achieve is the ‘game-within-a-game’ concept, but this usually isn’t achieved because once you’ve claimed local dominance, the second part of the game (world dominance) never happens. Ocean stalemate lines are too cheaply-maintained, and yet they are impossible to break- even if you are much stronger than your enemy. Success on land should determine one’s ability to cross oceans and compete with foreign powers; however these games have the opposite dynamic where one’s ability to set a position which can infallibly ward off the strongest of foreign powers allows them to charge in one direction without worry of defense. In a game with 35 players, it is certain that at least 6-8 players will adopt this technique, and is why full-press games are often difficult to win, or get down to a high-scoring draw. In my opinion, this strategy-enigma is the main hurdle you’d have to cross to achieve the ‘game-within-a-game’ dynamic.

My proposed solution to this enigma would be to open up the sea-zones to additional fleets (perhaps to a small maximum of 2 or 3) that could each be used either in battle, for support, or for convoy. In a game with enhanced naval combat, we could experience several new interesting dynamics:
-alliances would become far more urgent, valuable, AND vulnerable.
-a more realistic conflict-dynamic where success affords more opportunity on foreign shores, and stagnancy creates inefficiency and vulnerability of your naval brigade.
-a wider scope for long-range and end-game strategy
-less likelihood of large draws due to stalemates, which leave some players dissatisfied
-more tactical and fun naval conflicts
-more strategic alliance-building i.e. enhanced diplomacy!

It might also be worth considering extending this concept to certain *important coastal territories and/or those that are enormous on land. If such a concept were to be implemented, we would have to be careful that the game doesn’t change too much, or that navy battles don’t become too clogged with complex orders. This might just lead us into further gameplay issues. This is why I think we should keep it at a small minimum, and perhaps limit the individual abilities of extra fleets. For example, ways in which it might be cumbersome is if certain ships must cut certain support, and if a successful attack is against particular ships or the sea-zone in whole. These are kinks that will have to be worked out if it’s going to be possible to implement such a concept. I have several ideas, but I’m still trying to work out many of the details before I will post them; however I do believe that a nice balance can be found which will improve the WWIV game and that there can be ways to make it practical to implement. Much of this can be left up to discussion, as I’m looking for some suggestions before passing it on to the development stage. Please leave a comment if you have some good suggestions or feedback on plausibility.
gman314 (1016 D)
04 Dec 11 UTC
The main thing I can think of is that an extra order would be required. If power A is allied with power B and fighting power C, and if A has a fleet in some sea space, A wants to allow B's adjacent fleet in but not C's fleet. In fact, A might even want to support B's fleet to the spot that A is occupying. The possible solution is an "allow" order which would work as follows "The fleet at [location 1] allow move from [location 2] to [location 1]" It would even have to be extended to allow the same fleet to allow 2 moves to its location. Of course, if the fleet didn't "allow" a move to its location, the intruder would need support.
Raro (1449 D)
04 Dec 11 UTC
hmm, I hadn't considered the possibility of allies using the same zone- but its very interesting, and yes might be possible with an extra 'allow' order. The intention of my original idea was that you can pack in additional fleets into your occupied sea-zones (or pass through them).
gman314 (1016 D)
04 Dec 11 UTC
Yeah, that makes sense but you will end up with situations where you might want a stalemate line held by several powers. But then the question of how you stab when your units are in the same space.
kaner406 (2088 D Mod (B))
04 Dec 11 UTC
It might be really difficult, if not impossible to program territories that allow for more than one unit to occupy it.

My solution is to divide each large sea zone into 5 ''zones'', the initial zone plus 4 others.
The middle zone is adjacent to all adjacent territories, while the ''outer'' zones are adjacent to only those ''outer'' zones adjacent to them + the middle zone.

example here:
http://forum.webdiplomacy.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=751&p=4239#p4239
Raro (1449 D)
04 Dec 11 UTC
"It might be really difficult, if not impossible to program territories that allow for more than one unit to occupy it."

What if the zone officially represents 1 unit, but when another unit enters it- it become a 'reinforced fleet', with 2 sets of orders. It could be visually distinguishable simply by a different color, or with a colored circle around it
(ex.)
1. -select basic order- move, hold, etc.
2. -select 'reinforced' option- add support (doubles effect of basic order), hold (s.h. itself), support move of basic fleet (1 basic fleet will be present in each).



gman314 (1016 D)
04 Dec 11 UTC
Kaner, your solution looks very confusing. A possibility to make it look less confusing while keeping it the same, would be to program the sub-zones so the judge can interpret movement and have a hierarchy of which sub-zone gets filled first, while keeping the map the same. I really don't know how well that would work, but that's my idea.
Raro (1449 D)
04 Dec 11 UTC
*free convoy could also be added to the 2nd list.

I also like your plan. Any current devolopments?
Raro (1449 D)
04 Dec 11 UTC
^ @kaner
kaner406 (2088 D Mod (B))
04 Dec 11 UTC
No current development on the idea. At the moment I'm working on another variant (but don't want to let the cat out of the bag just yet). Let's see what Oli has to say about the hierarchy solution to the problem first.
kaner406 (2088 D Mod (B))
04 Dec 11 UTC
(in the meantime, a list of the culprit zones, would be helpful)
Raro (1449 D)
04 Dec 11 UTC
ok, thx
Oli (977 D Mod (P))
04 Dec 11 UTC
Most solutions are really hard to code (and I'm not sure if I am that good at programming).
1. The code does not allow for additional commands. The transform command is a really whackly implementation (it's basically a clever hidden support-move command).
2. There is no way to assign more than one unit to a territory. There is no database entry to store this info.
That said as I get better at coding (don't need a computer at wok) I might find a solution to such issues, but it's very unlikely that I could implement something like this in the near future.

kaners idea is IMHO really clever. It allows for a fast expansion (as the fleets can occupy the center zone), but it's harder to form a stalemate line, as enemy units can attack these spaces with much more units (or sneak through).
tobi1 (1997 D Mod (S))
04 Dec 11 UTC
I like kaners idea, too, but it's as mentioned before a bit confusing. My solution is dividing the big see zones and let fleets move more than one space a turn, like the cavalry in Germany in 1648. On the one hand you need more fleets to form stalemates and on the other hand it allows fast expansion, too.
What do you think?
ezpickins (1717 D)
06 Dec 11 UTC
(+1)
"it's basically a clever hidden support-move command" +1 Oli that is awesome
ScubaSteve (1202 D)
06 Dec 11 UTC
Why not just have smaller and more numerous sea spaces?
kaner406 (2088 D Mod (B))
06 Dec 11 UTC
It becomes really problematic to convoy over the oceans if there are many small sea-regions.
ScubaSteve (1202 D)
06 Dec 11 UTC
Shouldn't it be hard to convoy over the oceans?
kaner406 (2088 D Mod (B))
06 Dec 11 UTC
unless there was a transform option, the problem is the ratios needed to get fleets to cover the sea-regions will be really hard to get right, and impossible for many countries.

Take Inca for an example, to gain control of Sth America Inca has to produce a lot of armies to do so - only at times when he can spare it can he build a fleet. By the time (if he is lucky) he controls SthAmerica, he is stuck without a majority needed to win, and a vastly inadequate navy to convoy him armies off-shore - this problem is especially bad when he then needs x2 or x4 times more fleets to do this.

So to organise a convoy you would need several countries to pitch in to make it feasible.
ScubaSteve (1202 D)
06 Dec 11 UTC
I guess I am ok with it being hard to do. Sea power teaming up with a land power. England convoying German armies or Australia convoying Near East. I think tweaking the seas to make the spaces a little bit smaller would be almost universally accepted as an improvement.

I am intrigued by the idea of a transform option.
kaner406 (2088 D Mod (B))
06 Dec 11 UTC
for sure. I love the idea of several countries needing to be involved, but it would be impossible for gunboat games, giving the advantage to countries that have access to land expansion over countries needing fleets to win.
ScubaSteve (1202 D)
06 Dec 11 UTC
Bah. Gunboats stink.
kaner406 (2088 D Mod (B))
06 Dec 11 UTC
(+1)
I'm of the opinion that if a variant can't be played-out as a gunboat, then there are some flaws inherent in the design.
kaner406 (2088 D Mod (B))
06 Dec 11 UTC
(conceptually, you could double the SCs on the land, allowing for the fleets needed, but this would require a whole re-write I think)
ScubaSteve (1202 D)
06 Dec 11 UTC
I don't see why requiring cooperation is a bad thing. Still, since I haven't ever designed anything and your variants are pretty fantastic I guess I can't really criticize.
ScubaSteve (1202 D)
06 Dec 11 UTC
On second thought, gunboats stink.
kaner406 (2088 D Mod (B))
06 Dec 11 UTC
not mine :) other people's - just converted them is all.

I think that the idea of more sea-territories is viable, but it would have to take place on a different board design, I don't think this could be retro-engineered so-to-speak, and still have a playable variant.
ScubaSteve (1202 D)
06 Dec 11 UTC
Maybe add an extra column of sea spaces in the Atlantic and Pacific? It would be interesting to see if a relatively small adjustment made a difference. I appreciate that it is easy to have an "idea" and hard to implement it.
Raro (1449 D)
13 Dec 11 UTC
Thanks everybody for your feedback.
It seems like anything having to do with extra orders or multiple units can pretty much be ruled out, or really hard to implement. I figured it might be, but I'm unfamiliar with the limitations of the databases on this site. I'm continuing to puzzle over some ideas that might be possible, using as simple a form of if-then equations. I'm not a programmer, but I'll offer them up to anyone who can/wants to run with them.
In the meantime, I'd like to follow up on Kaner's idea, which addresses the same purpose. Would it be possible to do a test run?, even if it were a single ocean- it would be helpful to get an idea of how naval combat will take place.

@kaner
am I interpretting your diagrams correctly?:
-each (center) zone is within range of (all) zones of the adjacent (main) zone
-each sub-zone is only within range of adjacent sub-zones of the adjacent (main) zone, as well as the (center) zone of adjacent (main) zones.
-each sub-zone is adjacent to (all) zones within its own (main) zone

What are your ideas concerning islands? Would the island itself be a 'center' zone, or would it be surrounded by a 'center' zone.
Surrounding an island with a 'center' zone might also be a good improvement so we could convoy to islands, while being able to 'hold the line' with little confusion. Also, limiting convoys to the 'center' zones might also help prevent server disfunctions. Since this might create some puzzlement around island groups, I'd be happy to try to draw up some diagrams over break and provide them if it might help. In many cases, I think we could reduce the amount of subzones needed, and the enhanced gameplay will occur just because of the extended range and flexibility of the subzones.

Raro (1449 D)
13 Dec 11 UTC
1 more issue-
The only problem that may occur would be the ease of passing though one's line, it might even occur simply through retreating. It might be a good idea to say that a dislodged fleet can only retreat to his own occupied (controlling the center zone) or unoccupied zone or subzones. For these purposes, it might be helpful to distinguish the 'center' zones for matters of occupancy/control of the main zone. Of course, any open zone can be entered at any time, but a fleet cannot advance into an enemy zone because of a retreat.
kaner406 (2088 D Mod (B))
13 Dec 11 UTC
Using the example the following convoy can happen:

CAP - PER
SWI c CAP - PER
SIO c CAP - PER

so can another convoy
CAP - PER
SWI (nw) c CAP - PER
SWI (ne) c CAP - PER
SIO (sw) c CAP - PER
GAB (sw) c CAP - PER
GAB (nw) c CAP - PER



I imagine that each meta-province would be distinguished on the map somehow (by a simple heavy border perhaps). Some Islands could also have 4 zones surrounding it, and still be adjacent to the original sea zone.
kaner406 (2088 D Mod (B))
13 Dec 11 UTC
sorry Raro - yes your list is what I had in mind.


32 replies
Jonnikhan (1554 D)
13 Dec 11 UTC
Need a replacement!!!
We've been waiting to start this game for eight days. 7-day phases allow for the busiest person to find the time to play. Cuba never showed up and we need a replacement player. Please check out gameID=4575 and join!
0 replies
Open
RoxArt (1732 D)
13 Dec 11 UTC
1 missing to start
http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=4634
cmon :)
0 replies
Open
GOD (1860 D Mod (B))
16 Nov 11 UTC
Euro-crisis
what do you think about the eurocrisis ?
68 replies
Open
Venetia (1587 D)
08 Dec 11 UTC
Classic with Switzerland.
Hi! Nobody ever thought of doing a variant of the classical with Switzerland as a SC? I think it would be very fun the struggle to control it between France and Germany and also Italy and Austria.
12 replies
Open
Grand Admiral Thrawn (1207 D)
07 Dec 11 UTC
(+1)
The insult other people thread.
A fun thread to throw humorous kind natured insults at one another. Keep it PG 13 and moderately decent so it is fun and not mean.
43 replies
Open
Wolfman (1230 D)
11 Dec 11 UTC
Viking map Questions?
In http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=4511#gamePanel we just had a extention on the phases. Due to a CD'ed France. He has been on but not playing. I seen there was ask of Oli to help move another game on after a 3rd restart. Has this been solved or will it keep restarting or 5 day phases?
0 replies
Open
Decima Legio (1987 D)
08 Dec 11 UTC
Rinascimento enlisting
anyone willing to get a Rinascimento game going?
gameID=4606
2 replies
Open
Venetia (1587 D)
06 Dec 11 UTC
New Economic game.
gameID=4638
Let's see who is the best capitalist.
7 replies
Open
Karl Detroit (1167 D)
09 Dec 11 UTC
Livematch
gameID=4677 on the fall of american empire map as an quick one on one game. Phase length is set by 6 hours but it meant to play quicker.
0 replies
Open
GOD (1860 D Mod (B))
09 Dec 11 UTC
Game not processing
http://vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=4556
0 replies
Open
El Cremoso (1728 D)
08 Dec 11 UTC
Sengoku Gunboat Game
gameID=4664
Sengoku Gunboat
8 players, 12 hr. turns, good times.
Let's get this going.
1 reply
Open
OstrichFace (1265 D)
08 Dec 11 UTC
Solo Cuba Win
First Cuba solo on this server in American Empire IV: http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=3561
5 replies
Open
sebastian1988 (955 D)
07 Dec 11 UTC
new game
new game gunboat! south america 8 players. http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=4641
8 replies
Open
Spartan22 (1883 D (B))
07 Dec 11 UTC
Replacement needed!
2 replies
Open
butterhead (1272 D)
25 Nov 11 UTC
(+1)
Italian Team Game- Bidding wars revisited!!!
So we once had an Italy team game where the team captains bid on other countries to be on there team with a point-type system, but it never quite made it. I want to retry it.
103 replies
Open
ezpickins (1717 D)
08 Dec 11 UTC
Team Game and/or A Treaties Game
Is anyone interested in either?
0 replies
Open
Spartan22 (1883 D (B))
07 Dec 11 UTC
Chaos game needs replacement!
game hasn't even started so please join :D
gameID=4587
3 replies
Open
Hominidae (726 D)
07 Dec 11 UTC
New Modern Diplomacy Game
There is a new modern Diplomacy game with a 2-day phase.
gameID=4644
0 replies
Open
mongoose998 (1344 D)
06 Dec 11 UTC
(+4)
Variant Idea: ClassicTransform
I think the Classic map would be very nifty with a Transform function. It would really keep all the players on their toes.
IE: Fall 1901 Italy Convoys to Tunis. France thinks "oh, just a lepanto, im ok"
Spring Italy transforms it to a fleet, oh noes!
thoughts?
9 replies
Open
wrighty77 (1179 D)
05 Dec 11 UTC
Build Anywhere - Can't Build!
I'm playing as Britain in gameID=4478 and have 9 units, but 12 scs. The game has just turned to builds but I have only been given 2 new builds. I thought in a build anywhere then I would be able to build 3 this turn as I have more empty scs.
Any thoughts or help appreciated!
6 replies
Open
Spartan22 (1883 D (B))
06 Dec 11 UTC
2 more for a chaos game!!!
gameID=4587

Come on guys, only two more!
4 replies
Open
El Cremoso (1728 D)
06 Dec 11 UTC
Sengoku Map at 9pm CST
Need 7 more players for a fast Sengoku game. 5 min turns, chat allowed, 5 pts to play.
gameID=4637
0 replies
Open
Jonnikhan (1554 D)
05 Dec 11 UTC
Viking game stuck in loop
gameID=4519
One player has CD'd and the system keeps restarting, waiting for a replacement. We are now experiencing our third reset. Oli, could you bypass this?
5 replies
Open
Spartan22 (1883 D (B))
06 Dec 11 UTC
5 more needed!
gameID=4587

Only 5 more needed for chaos! 16 hours left :D
1 reply
Open
Spartan22 (1883 D (B))
05 Dec 11 UTC
Replacement needed!
gameID=4555
Burgundy is in CD so we need a replacement!
It's a viking game public press
12 replies
Open
Spartan22 (1883 D (B))
04 Dec 11 UTC
Chaos game! 15 more needed!
5 replies
Open
Spartan22 (1883 D (B))
05 Dec 11 UTC
chaos game!
8 more needed!!
gameID=4587
0 replies
Open
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