like I said, not sure how much I can commit to working on these at this time, but I'd still like your thoughts

Alternate History variant(s) sound cool.

Sounds interesting, I might be able to help a bit. (I especially like the idea of the Alternate History.)

thanks :) I figured the alt. History would be a popular idea, I got the idea somewhat from the Vicky 2 forum and its Divergences mod

Great stuff shep. Love alternate history variants. If you want some ideas of how to set the scene for alternate history variants drop by some I've created for VDip eg Mate Against Mate - an Australian alternate history, and American Conflict - a Civil War variant but with an alternate timeline of Europe getting involved.

Thanks! I think the hardest part is to decide where to place the divergences, I'm up for having multiples and if there is enough interest then I'll make a thread devoted to coming up with ideas and divergences that could be included

Maybe a USSR/NATO war? We could have Russia, Germany, United States, England, etc. and some of the other Eastern European countries.

I'm still set on a Vietnam War variant! I think it would be so cool, and it's a part of the world that none of the other variants have really touched on. Plus it would allow for alliance games, or some alternate history versions.

I like both of those ideas

Well, if you want an American Indian variant kind of like the Meso-American one you had in mind, you could find it here...

http://forum.webdiplomacy.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=845

so I've put some thought into the Alt. History and I'd like more than one divergence, but how about a French victory in the Napoleonic Wars or a French victory at Waterloo as a starting point? I've got some ideas as to what parts of the world would look like.

Here's an idea for Alt History: The USA is not antagonistic to Japan prior to its involvement in WW2, therefore Pearl Harbor and American involvement in Europe and the rest of the war does not occur, and the allies are all but defeated.

Japan seizes much of SE Asia and China up to the border of India.

India throws off British rule following the British defeat, and they conquer their middle eastern neighbors.

The Soviets fight Germany to a bitter Stalemate in the East, and remains neutral with Japan. The Soviet Union Collapses, and much of the "break away republics" break away earlier than in RL.

Germany conquers most of Western Europe and invades the British Isles. They then set up a Vichy French government that controls France and the Isles. Spain and Italy remain relatively small except for a few smattering of colonies along north Africa.

The Strength of a Unified Europe leads to a fear among African powers regarding a hostile Europe, and the South Africans ally with their neighbors to create the unified South African Nation.

In the Americas, the USA, Mexico and Canada have gone to multiple wars, and have weakened each other significantly. Argentina has become the dominate power in South America with German support against Chile in the war of 1954 and against Brazil in the War of 1955

And then Germany invents the nuke and all hell breaks loose.

correct, but nukes could be the spark for this war...

I feel a wave of alt history maps inbound :D I love it!

I got one:

Alexander the Great heads West instead of East.
Circa 1945 (A.D.) The Indo-Chinese Alliance declares war on Macedonia, the ruler of most of Africa, Europe, and the American Colonies. Somehow, the Incas have dominated South America and have even begun attempts to industrialize Antarctica!
Meanwhile, the West coast of the Americas are held by a Pan-Pacific alliance of inferior technology. Also, the Martians are invading.

@JLB - I think there's an opportunity for two Cold War variants: something set before the Sino-Soviet split (eg 1958) allowing a 1 vs 1 game; and then maybe something set in 1985 as a three way (USSR/People's Republic of China/USA) with all their sphere's of influence at the time. I've suggested 1985 as the USSR was a real threat at that time (4 years later different story eg still has Eastern Europe, Afghanistan etc) and you have a good mix of Western and Chinese spheres of influence. If I had my way (and the time) I'd suggest just recoding the WWIV map to be just the three countries (and neutrals.) Theoretically because its an existing map it wouldn't be too difficult.

@shep - Love this idea. I think a map where Napoleon is almost at his greatest height (eg 1811 between the War of the Fifth Coalition and War of the Sixth Coalition.) I thought a great variant would be conditions of winning is owning 70% of SCs. This encourages Napoloeon to try to peal coalition support to him as allies, and creates a flip side incentive amongst the Coalition to try sticking together and not joining France (eg their victory conditions would be reducing France down to maybe 30% of SCs.) As the value of each country would be different in their SC count I'd expect you'd use the Rinascimento rules when it comes to weighting.

@ezpickins - I like a WW2 alternate set similarly around the starting point of the Axis and Allies game (eg December 1941) where Germany is at its height against the USSR and before Pearl Harbour. This way starting powers can use their Diplomacy skills to cobble together new alliances (eg Japan and USA may not go to war, England may cut a deal with Germany etc.) This could again be played out on a recoded WWIV map. The one thing I'm conscious of though is there's been two recent WW2 variants added to the site (Zeus 5 and 1939.)

wow now I feel bad not explaining mine further lol, but better late than never I guess:

after the great French victory at Waterloo, the entire political situation of Europe and North America was changed drastically. The Congress of Aachen established a peace treaty that was heavily favorably to France. The French would establish a Protectorate of the Lowlands in Belgium and Holland and Prussia would cede the west bank of the River Rhine to the French Empire.

Eastern Europe was largely allowed to return the status quo and their leaders were ready for peace. In the following years Austria benefited greatly from Prussia's defeat at the hands of the French and succeeded in creating a South German Federation in personal union with Austria

Great Britain did not face immediate consequences from its defeat other than a rival in Europe, but the damage to the British image and psyche was done, within ten years the Irish were in full revolt from English rule and managed to establish an independent Ireland in 1831. Ireland later goes on to become a colonial power with holdings in Africa and Asia.

The United States of America was also changed greatly by the events in Europe. The American dream of conquering Canada did not die and with the victory at New Orleans made many think they ended the War of 1812 too soon and when Polk ascended to the presidency the slogan of 54"40 or Fight was realized. The Great North American War as it was called raged onward until US forces led by General Winfield Scott and his brilliant subordinate, Robert E. Lee finally defeated British forces in Canada.
The immediate result of the treaty of Boston, was the aptly named Boston Purchase, all of Canada west of Hudson Bay would be sold to the United States of America and Quebec and Ontario would become a British Dominion autonomous of British rule in domestic affairs.

The introduction of so much northern territory caused the southern American states to secede from the Union in 1858. Robert E. Lee once again a pivotal figure almost single-handedly bring about the southern victory.

Texas was never annexed by the United States and assisted the Anglo-Spanish-French invasion of mexico in the 1860s, gaining New Mexico, Arizona, California, and the rest of Mexico's northern territory in the process becoming a great power in its own right.


In the East Japan began to rise to prominence and benefited from the growing French Empire in southeast Asia and their alliance with the Bonaparte Dynasty. Together the two Empires carved up large chunks of China and the remaining lands of the Dragon Emperor broke into warlordism

the year is now 1901 and the nations of the world know the next war is on the horizon....
thats all I got :p

@ Ambassador, I like your Napoleon idea for a European map :) my long story is mainly for a world or at least northern hemisphere
I also like your 1985 Cold War idea, Red Dawn diplomacy anyone? ;)

@Shep - wow that is one pretty divergent set of timelines! Yet having the backstory really paints a great picture and could position a really engaging balanced gameplay :-)

I'll have one of these alt. Histories in the morrow for ya, got a great idea but hard to think straight this early...

The year was 1492- The Spanish and Portuguese began expanding into the Americas. However, the Europeans were not prepared for what they were about to face in the new world. In Mexico, The Aztecs managed to capture the Spaniards, enslave them, and forced them to make guns and other weapons for their own use. With this power, the Aztecs swiftly conquered the rest of New Spain (present day Mexico and Central America). In Peru, the Inca had a much different approach; they managed to bribe the Spaniards into helping them and became the greatest power in South America, matched only by Portuguese Brazil, who controlled the lands of Brazil and Venezuela.
In 1580, Spain conquered the Portuguese land in Europe, forcing the government to retreat to Brazil. The Portuguese fought constantly for the land back, but fell short, and finally gave up and made their new home in Brazil, renamed to New Portugal.
With Iberia firmly in their grip, the Spanish spread through southern France and began a decade long war with the Italians, who after many years, surrendered to Spanish rule. At the same time as this Spanish spread of power, a protest began in Iceland against their Norwegian rulers. After just 1 year of fighting, Iceland not only won their independence, but went on to conquer Greenland, Scotland, Norway, Sweden, and Eastern Canada. Seeing the power that Iceland now held in Europe and America, the colonies of the United States felt they could do the same by breaking away from Britain, so in 1640, they revolted and won independence from Britain, and within a decade, spread from Virginia to California, and Florida to Maine. The territory of Texas became a sticking point between the Aztec empire and the United States, and Western Canada was the home of the blood bath known as the Iceland-American war, a conflict that ended with both sides declaring a draw and the territory remaining unpopulated.
The governments of France, Great Britain, the German republic, the Netherlands, and Denmark, quickly formed an alliance known as the European Federation, but after only 4 years of existence, broke down and began the war of 1655, which lasted only 9 months and ended with Denmark conquering all of the Netherlands and Germany, while Great Britain conquered Northern France(Southern France belonged to the Spanish). The four great European powers of Spain, Denmark, Great Britain, and Iceland soon found themselves with great tension between them.
With all of the wars going on in Europe and the Americas, nobody seemed to notice that a man named Commander Ackbar rose to power in Tunisia, a small country formed in Northern Africa. Ackbar declared that he would unite Africa under one leader. He quickly lead his troops to victory after victory in the North. Ackbar was the greatest leader Africa had ever seen, but he was extremely paranoid, and many times when another nation approached him with an offer, he was heard to say “It’s a trap!” this paranoia caused his diplomatic relations to be very hard, and eventually caused his assassination. When his son took over, the spread slowed rapidly, but was still noticeable to those who paid attention. Only one nation stood against Tunisia, a rival power known as Madagascar, who had made landfall on the coast of South Africa and quickly spread through the region. The two powers drew ever closer to each other, and conflict was sure to ensue.
At the same moment that Ackbar was taking control of Tunisia and Madagascar was becoming an African super power, a small group of Nomads that fled from Madagascar landed on a large Island that became known as Australia. The Australians then divided into two groups, the Island Australians, and the mainland Australians. The Islanders stayed on the Islands of Australia, Indonesia, and in the Philippines, while the mainlanders spread throughout southern Asia, into China and eventually the Middle East. These two nations shared relative peace for many years, but there is always tension between two governments. One final power arose in the world, a power known as the Siberians, a group of peoples mixed by the cultures of Iceland, the United States, the Mainland Australians, and the Spanish, located in Eastern Russia and Western Canada.
The year is now 1875, and war will strike, but nobody knows when or where it will hit first…
For all those confused, the powers are as followed:
United States- modern day mainland USA excluding Texas
Aztec Empire- modern day Mexico and Central America
Incan Empire- most of South America
New Portugal- modern day Brazil and Venezuela
Spain- Iberian Peninsula, Southern France, Italy, Western Austria-Hungary
Great Britain- Great Britain, Northern France
Denmark- Denmark, Netherlands, Germany, parts of Western Russia and North West Austria-Hungary
Iceland- Iceland, Greenland, Scotland, Eastern Canada, Norway, Sweden, North-Western Russia
Tunisia- Northern half of Africa
Madagascar- Southern third of Africa
Island Australia- Australia, Oceania, Philippines, Indonesia
Mainland Australia- China, South Asia, Middle East, Japan
Siberia- Eastern Russia, Western Canada

You lost me at "The Aztecs managed to capture the Spaniards..."

hehehe, that's an Alternate History for you ;)

+1 butterhead. Cool Idea.

I've put some more thought into my idea and have these possible powers
USA- all the US states minus the southwest and CSA, but with western Canada included (Alaska would be a neutral center called either the Republic of Sitka, or the Alyeska)
CSA- All of the historic CSA minus texas (Kentucky, West Virginia, and Missouri could be neutral centers or non-sc provinces to simulate a border dispute)
Texas- Modern state, plus the the real-life Mexican cession, Hawaii, midway islands
Ireland- Ireland and its colonies (undecided)
Great Britain- British Isles (except Ireland), India, and possibly a canal in Suez (despite everything they still are a naval power)
France- France, Rhineland, Northwest Italy, plus colonies
Russia- Regular Russian Empire, no frills (although might make a bit of early communism for them)
South German Federation- Austria-Hungary, Southern Germany, Northeast Italy
Turkey- again just regular ottoman empire
Japan- Japanese Home islands, Korea, Manchuria, Taiwan, Philippines, possibly other colonies
Xinjiang- Islamic theocracy situated in Western China, ruled by a warlord
Hei Dynasty (pronounced hway)- Self-proclaimed emperor of China, controls Southern China


I don't have all the colonies laid out yet, most of Africa and the rest of Asia will be filled with them (but will have neutrals as well)
I also am open to thoughts on a possible south american power for possible balancing issues

forgot to add that CSA also has Cuba

I hate to spam my own thread lol, but I had an idea about south america

Empire of New Austria- Basically the Hapsburg monarchy lasted in Mexico due to the powerful France, owns about all of Central Mexico and is heavily Germanized due to deliberate government policy, this has caused the remaining Northern and Southern states to revolt constantly (these would be represented as neutrals)
Gran Colombia- not much to say here, just that Gran Colombia never collapsed into its constituent components

by my count that is 14, with room for one more in SA. Thoughts on the whole idea?

good ideas :)

anybody else have any ideas, while we're asking for them? :D

ex-Colonial map: The year is 1910, Europe is in shambles following a destructive war. The American colonies include: Quebec, Mass Bay Colony, Virginia, Spanish Florida, Mexico, and Louisiana. Another power that has recently emerged from the West is the Native American Alliance, which is located in the Northwest.

Story: The Seven years war resulted in a bloody stalemate between the French and the British. Both the French and British Heavily taxed their colonies, which resulted in two separate revolutions, both of which are successful. Both groups, the French and the British Colonials decide to form a confederation of States and create the Articles of Confederation.

In 1812, the major states included New Brunswick, Mass Bay, Virginia, Carolina, Florida, Quebec, Louisiana and Florida. New Brunswick and Carolina attempt to
grow and invite the British to help them defeat the other nations surrounding them. They are promptly thrashed, and this results in the present day system. Following the Great European War of 1901, the Confederation remained isolated initially, but some nations wished to become involved. Following the conclusion of the war, Virginia, Mexico and Quebec seceded from the Confederation, and it collapsed.

While the Confederation collapsed, the Native American Nation in the West had received guns from the Russians, and the threw out all others from their territory. From here, the stage is set for an epic war on the American Continent

Great ideas! Love ex-Colonial with all of the British, French, Spanish, and Russians.

I'd like to see a revamp/improvement of Aberration
http://www.diplom.org/Online/maps/big_aberration.gif

Aberration Scenario

There are 9 great powers.

Here are some brief suggestions to what may have happened to these powers such
that they achieved greatness, while those that we know so well didn't.

Burgundy The final confrontation between the civilization of the Seine and
the Saone was no sure thing for the Parisian monarch. In this
instance the victor was the Burgundian dynastic state, stretching
from the Rhone to the North Sea.

Byzantium This empire might have survived had the Turks failed to make a
landing in Europe. The population of western Asia Minor was
still basically Greek in the 1400s. Some strong emperors could
have given the Greek state a new lease on life.

Hungary She was a budding great power until the Turkish invasions. A
strong Byzantium would have prevented that and Hungary, not
Austria, could have become the great Danubian power.

Eire If Irish missionary activity had been followed by political
action on behalf of their fellow celts, the Anglo-Norman imperium
at London might have been still-born. All the Irish needed was
some real unity, which the almost achieved on occasion.

Israel This could be a continuation of the ancient dynastic state under
descendants of the Maccabees, or the Herods. More likely,
however, it would be representative of the final victory of the
Crusaders in the Middle East. It might therefore be called the
"Kingdom of Jerusalem"

Poland The Poles had many opportunities to overwhelm both the Russian
and the eastern Germans. We must here assume that one
opportunity finally worked.

Sicily This island once had an excellent chance of gaining control of
most of Italy under a powerful and aggressive Norman dynasty.
These rulers died out, and Sicily became the pawn of others.
Here we assume that the Norman dynasty did not die out.

Spain The could be a Christian Spain which somehow remained powerful
despite a long succession of cretinous monarchs. Perhaps they
were spared the third-rate Hapsburgs and Bourbons which were
thrust upon them. OR this is a Muslim Spain, which case we
should refer to it as the "Caliphate of Toledo" (a change of
capital from Cordova).

Ukraine The original Russian state was centred at Kiev, and we suppose
here that this southern centre remained dominant rather than
losing out to the northern centres at Vladimir and Moscow. These
people would, however, continue to call their land "Russia" or
something like it.:

BURGUNDY SICILY EIRE
A Dijon A Rome A Alcluyd
A Brussels F Naples F Dublin
F Hague F Palermo F Edinburgh

HUNGARY ISRAEL POLAND
A Budapest A Damascus A Warsaw
A Szeged A Jerusalem A Riga
F Zara F Cairo F Gdansk

SPAIN UKRAINE BYZANTIUM
A Toledo A Kiev A Athens
F Santander A Odessa F Constantinople
F Valencia F Yalta F Smyrna

* A player may build on any supply centre he/she owns which is vacant as
long as he/she still own at least one of his/her original centres.

* Six provinces have interior waterways, inland canals, or bordering canals.
Each of these provinces operates exactly as does Kiel, Constantinople or
Denmark in the regular game. They are:

Cairo, Constantinople, Denmark, Holstein, Sinai, and Taurida.

The Suez canal separates the provinces of Sinai and Cairo, units can pass
from Sinai to Cairo. So in one turn the moves F Delta Sea-Sinai and
F Red Sea-Cairo would both succeed.

* The Caspian Sea, Crete, Iceland, Corsica and any other unnamed space is
not passable.

* There are 52 supply centres. The victory criterion is possession of 27
supply centres at the end of any Fall retreat.

* The game begins in 1901.

ok so here's a revised description of my idea:

The French Century
After the great French victory at Waterloo, the entire political situation of Europe and North America was changed drastically. The Congress of Aachen established a peace treaty that was heavily favorably to France. The French would establish a Protectorate of the Lowlands in Belgium and Holland and Prussia would cede the west bank of the River Rhine to the French Empire.

Eastern Europe was largely allowed to return the status quo and their leaders were ready for peace. In the following years Austria benefited greatly from Prussia's defeat at the hands of the French and succeeded in creating a South German Federation in personal union with Austria

Great Britain did not face immediate consequences from its defeat other than a rival in Europe, but the damage to the British image and psyche was done, within ten years the Irish were in full revolt from English rule and managed to establish an independent Ireland in 1831. Ireland later went on to become a colonial power with holdings in Africa and Asia.

The United States of America was also changed greatly by the events in Europe. The American dream of conquering Canada did not die and with the victory at New Orleans made many think they ended the War of 1812 too soon and when Polk ascended to the presidency the slogan of 54"40 or Fight was realized. The Great North American War as it was called raged on until US forces led by General Winfield Scott and his brilliant subordinate, Robert E. Lee finally defeated British forces in Canada. The immediate result of the treaty of Boston was the aptly named Boston Purchase, all of Canada west of Hudson Bay would be sold to the United States of America and Quebec and Ontario would become a British Dominion autonomous of British rule in domestic affairs.

The introduction of so much northern territory caused the southern states to secede from the Union in 1858. Robert E. Lee was a pivotal figure in this war almost single-handedly bringing about southern victory and independence. The CSA went to war with Spain in 1898 and added Cuba as their newest state.

Texas was never annexed by the United States and defeated Mexico a second time in the1840s, gaining New Mexico, Arizona, California, and the rest of Mexico's northern territory in the process becoming a great power in its own right.

Mexico faced problems and being defeated by the “Yankee Rebels” as they referred to the Texans was too much for them to bear. They faced endemic revolt and Civil War until the French intervened in the 1860s. They placed the Hapsburg Maximilian on the throne and a new dynasty was born in Mexico. The French remained until the 1870s when the last of the Juarez loyalists were defeated. In the following decades a policy of “Germanization” was established. The Mexican Emperors slowly but surely attempted to destroy the Mexican culture, outlawing many Holidays and even the Spanish Language. The final blow came when they officially renamed the country The Empire of New Austria. This caused the more nationalist people in the north and south to revolt and break away from the government in Central Mexico. Now the Empire prepares to strike back.

In the East Japan began to rise to prominence and benefited from the growing French Empire in Southeast Asia and their alliance with the Bonaparte Dynasty. This allowed them to take the remaining Spanish colonies in the East without much of a fight following the Confederate-Spanish War. They were also able to carve out an Empire on the mainland, seizing Korea and Manchuria.
China faced hard times and was the victim of Franco-Japanese imperialism. The near constant defeats of the Qing dynasty caused revolt, which in turn invited more intervention from Japan and France. The Muslims of Xinjiang were the first to break away from the Imperial Dynasty and established a theocratic state in the west. In southern China military officers began to revolt as well and a coup was launched by a general named Hwei. He established a new dynasty, but was unable to gain control of all of China and now holds a power base in the south.
In southern Africa the Boers have unified into a single state and are now fighting for their independence from the British. They have achieved several early victories and have well established themselves. They will be a hard enemy for the Englishmen to defeat.
Years before the French victory a man named Tupac Amaru led a revolt in Peru against the Spanish. In real life the rebels were defeated and executed, but in this timeline Tupac escaped the Spaniards. He fled to the south and through a guerilla campaign, established a new Empire in Southern Bolivia and Northern Chile. In northern South America Bolivar’s dream was partially realized. He managed to keep the nation of Gran Colombia together and in subsequent years it became the most powerful country in South America.

The year is now 1901 and the nations of the world know the next war is on the horizon....


1. USA- all the US states minus the southwest and CSA, but with western Canada included (Alaska would be a neutral center called either the Republic of Sitka, or the Republic Alyeska)
2. CSA- All of the historic CSA minus Texas, plus Cuba (Kentucky, West Virginia, and Missouri could be neutral centers or non-sc provinces to simulate a border dispute)
3. Texas- Modern state, plus the real-life Mexican cession, Hawaii, midway islands
4. Ireland- Ireland and its colonies (undecided)
5. Great Britain- British Isles (except Ireland), India, and possibly a canal in Suez (despite everything they still are a naval power)
6. France- France, Rhineland, Northwest Italy, plus colonies
7. Russia- Regular Russian Empire, no frills (although might make a bit of early communism for them)
8. South German Federation- Austria-Hungary, Southern Germany, Northeast Italy
9. Turkey- again just regular ottoman empire
10. Japan- Japanese Home islands, Korea, Manchuria, Taiwan, Philippines, possibly other colonies
11. Xinjiang- Islamic theocracy situated in Western China, ruled by a warlord
12. Hwei Dynasty (pronounced Ha-way)- Self-proclaimed emperor of China, controls Southern China
13. Empire of New Austria- Basically the Hapsburg monarchy lasted in Mexico due to the powerful France, owns about all of Central Mexico and is heavily Germanized due to deliberate government policy, this has caused the remaining Northern and Southern states to revolt constantly (these would be represented as neutrals)
14. Gran Colombia- not much to say here, just that Gran Colombia never collapsed into its constituent components
15. Transvaal- Boer nation in South Africa that defeated the British in the Boer War.
16. Amaru’s Empire- in 1780 Tupac Amaru II attempted to seize control of Spanish Peru, in real life he failed. This nation hinges on him escaping the Spaniards and establishing a new Empire in Chile and Bolivia. Added for balancing on South America.
17. French Protectorates- These are not playable, but represent armed neutrals

bump