Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 101 of 160
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sephiroth (866 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
Join our HRE Game
If you want to play, you can join our game, pass: 612345
http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=19217
1 reply
Open
SuperAnt (983 D)
05 Feb 14 UTC
(+1)
Fire and Blood - Game updates
The NWO game is underway. We have a healthy number of vdip players playing (thank you!), so I'll be posting the results here too. I just wanted to start up a clean thread for game updates and discussion. Here is the starting map:

http://i.imgur.com/TYOXILE.png
57 replies
Open
Alcuin (1454 D)
29 Apr 14 UTC
(+3)
And in other news
I am proud to announce the birth of a complete first and second draft of my novel 'Seven Sins' which I have been writing for the past 29 days. That is one reason I am only in one game at the moment.
4 replies
Open
Oli (977 D Mod (P))
19 Feb 14 UTC
Requesting ideas for a ReliabilityRating calculation...
Here is it's own thread, so the discussion is more visible.
290 replies
Open
Firehawk (1231 D)
18 Mar 14 UTC
Cold War Variant Poll
Hello vdip players. Safari and I have been working on our 1v1 Cold War variant for a while now and we are finished with most of the coding and such. We are currently going through some balance issues and have identified a problem we would like to fix.
9 replies
Open
Anon (?? D)
26 Apr 14 UTC
Bug report. Administration team. Please check
variant: http://vdiplomacy.com/variants.php?variantID=86
game http://vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=19165
turn: spring 1902, diplomacy
error: alert Parameter 'fromTerrID' set to invalid value '32'
3 replies
Open
SandgooseXXI (1294 D)
21 Apr 14 UTC
Back in black
Hey guys, sorry I've been gone so freaking long. I would have come back sooner if I could. Main issue is that they blocked V-dip from work. I had no other place to log in besides my job so now that I found a work around I am somewhat back in business...sorry for leaving everyone hanging when it mattered most, there was just everything out of my control. :(
7 replies
Open
Miklagard (1011 D)
24 Apr 14 UTC
What are the victory conditions for Fall of the American Empire: Civil War?
Richmond and Washington DC appear to be the capitals. In 1066, one must be in control of both their own capital and the capital of an enemy country. Are the rules similar for the Civil War variant, or are they just likely any other supply center?
5 replies
Open
Chaqa (1586 D)
25 Apr 14 UTC
(+3)
Large Map Arrow Click
So the idea is, you can click through the maps but the full-size map or the large map. It'd be useful for larger variants like Gobble and WW4, rather than having to maximize each individual picture.
2 replies
Open
tobi1 (1997 D Mod (S))
18 Apr 14 UTC
Colonial Diplomacy - Optional Rules: Testers needed
Finally the Colonial variant with implemented Trans-Siberian Railroad and Suez Canal is ready for a test game on the lab:
http://lab.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=193

Feel free to join to test the new features! :-)
16 replies
Open
Tomahaha (1170 D)
23 Apr 14 UTC
World Dipcon (Chapel Hill)
The World Dipcon tourney is approaching Memorial Day Weekend (May 20-22) and is being held in Chapel Hill, NC.
Housing is relatively inexpensive as is the entry fee.(Foreign travelers stay for free)
I am making my very first face to face tournament appearance and hope many here also make that jump as well. Do consider it and if you ARE going let us know!
http://www.dixiecon.com/
0 replies
Open
SniperGoth (959 D)
21 Apr 14 UTC
Favorite Varient and Balance
What is your favorite variant and do you think it's balanced?
2 replies
Open
Tristan (1258 D)
16 Apr 14 UTC
New Variant Testing
anyone care to help me test run my new variant?

http://lab.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=192
7 replies
Open
Fluminator (1265 D)
21 Apr 14 UTC
Reliable Chaos Game?
Would anyone who is reliable be interested in a classic chaos game? I want to play one but don't want it to be ruined by large amounts of drop outs.
0 replies
Open
GOD (1907 D Mod (B))
07 Apr 14 UTC
WII recreation
Hi everyone. Since the variant exists, i want to make a team game of variantID=87 (GB,France, SU vs Germany and Italy). That obviously has one major weak point. it's three (21 SCs) against two (14 SCs), with a difference of seven SCs. Those are my thoughts on that so far:
41 replies
Open
Chaqa (1586 D)
11 Apr 14 UTC
Did vDip used to be called something else?
I have it in my bookmarks as OLDip... did it used to be called something else?

Just curious.
23 replies
Open
Spartan22 (1883 D (B))
09 Apr 14 UTC
Playing all the Variants
I've played almost every variant on the site and eventually, I want to have played all of them. Would anyone be interested in playing any of these variants?
10 replies
Open
BabylonHoruv (811 D)
11 Apr 14 UTC
Webdiplomacy
Anyone know what is going on with it? It gave me an SQL error and won't let me log in.
12 replies
Open
KingCyrus (1258 D)
06 Apr 14 UTC
WWII needs YOU!
gameID=18949

Come on people, join now!
0 replies
Open
Spartan22 (1883 D (B))
17 Mar 14 UTC
(+1)
Vdip March Madness?
March Madness (college basketball for those that don't know) is finally rolling around. I was curious if anyone here would want to do a bracket challenge.
93 replies
Open
Battalion (2326 D)
30 Mar 14 UTC
Grey Press - variantID=50
Anyone up for giving this a go? It's like the normal classic, with the ability to send anonymous messages in addition to normal ones. I was thinking it would be 1 day phase, Anon, and full press. I'm not bothered about buy-in.
21 replies
Open
gopher27 (1606 D Mod)
28 Mar 14 UTC
Grad Students, Former Grad Students or IT Professionals?
Are you a graduate student, were you a graduate student when you joined this site or are you an IT professional?


Gopher----grad student
15 replies
Open
Rules Question/ Possible Glitch?
gameID=18823
Does anyone have an explanation for why Prussia didn't take Holland from France? RH moved to HOL with support from KIE. It seems that the support was cut, but I don't see any moves to KIE.
Thanks
3 replies
Open
Decima Legio (1987 D)
26 Mar 14 UTC
(+2)
Games history
Before taking a break from the site, I’d like to propose a couple of enhancements for the end-game analyses.
5 replies
Open
RUFFHAUS 8 (2490 D)
25 Mar 14 UTC
Redscape Games III - PBEM Tournament Results
Redscape Games III has come to a conclusion. A summary of the final standings is below:

8 replies
Open
RUFFHAUS 8 (2490 D)
07 Mar 14 UTC
(+1)
Interesting Episode of Diplomacy From WWII
I found this encounter from the Second World War to be extremely interesting, and not at all out of the context of some of the negotiations in our Diplomacy games.
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Retillion (2304 D (B))
12 Mar 14 UTC
(+3)
What a MISERABLE discussion !

So much IGNORANCE ! So much ARROGANCE !


Some of you are acting like great historians or great diplomats who know perfectly their subject. But your "knowledge" is based on a very incomplete and sometimes inaccurate article from Wikipedia ! Don't you know that no university in the world would accept Wikipedia has a valid source of information ? And honestly, guys, how many of you had heard or read about the battle of Mers El Kébir before RUFFHAUS_8 opened this thread ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The facts :
--------------

My sources are several books that I have in my personnal library : I have studied History for several years.


1297 (and not 1300) men were killed during that battle. The number of casulaties given by the Wikipedia article in English is inacurate.

There were 11 French military vessels in Mers El Kébir : they all took part in the battle.
There were 21 other French military vessels of generally lesser importance in Oran, about 4 miles away : none of them took part in the battle on July 03 1940. However, 1 of them was sank by the British Navy 3 days later.

Of the 11 vessels that were in Mers El Kébir :
- Only 1 was sunk : the battleship "Bretagne" was hit in the first minutes of the battle. She exploded and sank very quickly in a few minutes, killing 997 men.
- The battleship "Strasbourg" and 5 destroyers managed to escape and cross the Mediterranean Sea : the next day, on July 04 1940, they reached safely the French harbour of Toulon.

What happened in Mers El Kébir is called by some historians a "battle" but some historians call it actually a "bombing". Indeed, the French ships were not in a physical position to fire effectively. Indeed, they were perpendicular to the docks. On the contrary, the British ships were of course in firing position.

As you can see, the French Navy did not lose their entire Fleet, far from it !
Actually 6 out of the 11 fighting French ships managed to escape the British attack !

Some historians call that battle a "British victory". Some don't…

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some thoughts about Admiral Darlan :
---------------------------------------------------

Admiral Darlan, who had first refused the armistice with Germany, had even made possible that 1100 tons of gold of the French bank escape capture by the Germans by sending 3 French ships from Brest to Dakar. That action, and some other ones, proved that he was not initially willing to cooperate with the Germans.
Admiral Darlan had personally promised to Winston Churchill, the British prime minister that "No French ship will ever come into the hands of the Germans".
It is true that it was "only" a "promise" and that the British had no "guarantee".

One can ask about the necessity of the British attack…

It is AFTER the bombing of Mers El Kébir, which terribly shocked Darlan, that he could not trust at all his British "ally" any more. As matter of fact, Darlan even wanted then that France declares war to the United Kingdom ! It is Pétain, who convinced him that France should not do that.
Later, Darlan became a criminal by collaborating outrageously with the Germans…

One can ask several interesting questions that will NEVER be answered for sure :

- Would the French ships based in Mers El Kébir have joined the Axis forces without the British attack ? I don't think so but nobody will never know…
But let's not forget that those 6 French ships who managed to escape the British attack did NOT joined the Axis forces, even though the British had attacked those ships on July 03 1940 !

- Would Darlan have become such a nasty collaborator with the nazis if the bombing against Mers El Kebir had not taken place ? Who knows ?

- What would have been the consequences if France did declare war against the United Kingdom as a direct effect of the bombing of Mers El Kébir ? One thing is sure : that would have meant that the British attack would have been a terrible blunder !

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ RUFFHAUS_8 :

Even though your opening post of this thread is not totally accurate, thank you very much for bringing that fascinating question about the battle of Mers El Kébir !
It is indeed a most interesting and most complex situation that allows us to ask ourselves many questions. But we should realize honestly that many of our questions will never receive a totally complete answer.

I do not have a fixed opinion about who was right or who was wrong in that terrible situation.
Were the English right about their attack ? I suppose they weren't but I am not so sure…
Were the French wrong about not surrendering ? I suppose so but I am not so sure…

Let's not forget that there are MANY more informations that haven't been discussed here : I don't want to write a book right here…

And that is what is fascinating in those most complex situations : we could contemplate and think for hours and hours about everything without really knowing what would have happened if…

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ GOD :

NO : the French are not still angry about that.
Was that supposed to be a (bad) joke or are you simply an ignorant who tried to say something smart in the conversation ?

On July 08 1940, only a few days after the British attack, Charles de Gaulle declared officially that the British did the right thing in Mers El Kébir. Charles de Gaulle was later elected twice President of the French Republic...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ diatarn_iv :

You cannot prove that something wouldn't have happened by showing that something similar did not happen later elsewhere !

On another note, I do agree with you : I think the real question that "diplomats" should be discussing is not "Who was right ?", but "What went wrong ?".

I like your approach about that complex question : you are not trying to support the French, nor the British. You are trying to get the facts straight. I find it very sad that people, who obviously know almost nothing about that battle, dare to publicly state that some people were right and that some other were wrong…

That makes me think of the saying :
"War is not about who is right but about who is left !"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ Raro :

The hasty resolve of the British government is because of the fact that the British intercepted a French radio message saying to Admiral Gensoul that French ships were sent from Toulon and from Alger to rescue the French Fleet which was in Mers El Kébir. And so London gave the order to Admiral Sommerville to start the attack.

You are right : attacking the French Fleet gave Germany a lot of diplomatic strength and that gave them much more than Darlan's support !

On another note, please look at a map : Toulouse is not a port ! You obviously meant Toulon, didn't you ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ HawkenEye007 :

I really like your open-minded and modest approach of such a complex question.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ Tomahaha :

I first did not want to write in this thread but your repeated messages full of ignorance, arrogance and hate decided me to write this.

You are obviously totally ignorant about the Mers El Kébir battle.
But that's OK : you have the right to make a fool of yourself publicly. I don't care about that.

Then when you write things like [YOUR EXACT WORDS] :

- " Was Britain in the right or in the wrong, there is no middle ground position. "
- " discuss away but take a side, there really is no middle ground here. Britain was right or they were wrong, you are not taking a side. "

No : people don't have to take a side ! They have the right to question themselves with an open mind.
And since you like so much Wikipedia, take a look at this article :
"You're either with us , or against us."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27re_either_with_us,_or_against_us
You are trying to make use of a false dilemna !

Tomahaha, extremely complex decisions are not always simply right or wrong. This is not a dichotomy. There are things like nuances, subtleties, doubts… And these things create points (with an "s" !) of views.
And that is not OK any more. But that is not such a big deal for some of us : we can simply ignore your pseudo-certainties.


But, what I do care about, and that is the reason why I have written this message, is your repeated remarks about the French ! YOU wrote [YOUR EXACT WORDS] :
- " the French were being "French" "
- " That is unless the French were simply being French! "
- " Face it, the French were being "French" "
- " again, the French being French "
- " is nothing more than being full of ones self and to make an issue of that, that is "being French"
- " as far as my saying the French were acting "French"
You can argue with that statement but the French were (and still are) quite arrogant! I stand by that 100% ".

Tomaha, please tell me :
- How many French persons do you know personally ?
- Have you ever been to France ?
- Do you speak French ?

You probably don't know anything about France nor the French.
Your comments about the French are insulting ! You have been using a xenophobic speech ! To be precise, you have been using repeatedly HATE SPEECH !

Do you realize that you have written to diatarn_iv :
" I assume you are French? "
Do you realize that you are the first victim of your own dichotomic and hateful language ? Indeed, since diatarn_iv does not agree with you, you assume he is French !


On MANY forums HATE SPEECH is simply prohibited !
As a matter of fact, that way of speaking, or writing is illegal in MANY countries !

Do you realize that such a way of talking to people encourages hate ?
Do you realize that you might have offended MANY people ?

Tomahaha, you have soiled our site with your hateful comments. I am expecting now a decent answer from you !
Raro (1449 D)
12 Mar 14 UTC
Thanks for the post Retillion. I knew you had knowledge of such an episode, and was waiting for you to chime in. Also thanks for clarifying my question of the hastiness of British resolve.

...and yes, I must have meant Toulon, and mistakenly wrote Toulouse without thinking.

What you say about Admiral Darlan is intriguing, and it helps to fortify my belief that the attack had many negative diplomatic outcomes. I hadn't known Adm Darlan's personal opinion, but I knew that the French weren't happy in their agreement with Germany. So if I were a British diplomat, I suspect that I would have leaned to the belief that the fleet wasn't as big of a threat as it seemed, and an attack was not worth the diplomatic risks. As we see from Retillion's notes, Adm Darlan changed his entire opinion of the British and wanted to go to war with them! Seeing as France and England were allies before the armistace, and they only entered into the agreement with Germany to save what was left of their country, I would have had a little more faith in the hearts of the French.
diatarn_iv (1458 D)
12 Mar 14 UTC
@Retillion
you are obviously right about the fact that wikipedia should not be the main "reference" of a discussion; OTOH, I think I learned something about how the very same text can lead to completely different point of views. And thanks for the tirade about about taking a side.
Finally, thanks also about Darlan: in my mind, I completely mixed him up with Giraud.

@Tom: I'm too tired to answer everyting. But, at the very least
1) I'm not french (nor french-speaking). Merde :-)
2) You write
> Do you really think the French were not alerted by the British that they would be
> dropping mines? You think that was a simple out of the blue maneuver? That is so
> highly unlikely my assumption is pretty sound.
I completely agree. That was exactly the meaning of "trusted" in my sentence
> For example, in your opinion the french should have blindly trusted the british
> when they saw torpedo bombers heading towards their harbour

3) Again, you wrote
> and as far as Gensoul acting like a pompous arrogant ass, did you catch the part:
> "While Gensoul was unlikely to have conceded in any case, dispatching Captain
> Holland [...], thus causing delay and further confusion. It was also worth noting
> that Gensoul never sent a copy of this text to French Navy Minister Admiral Darlan."
> Gensoul was a fool! [...]
apart from the expletives, please explain the difference with
> I agree with much of what you say about Gensoul, except that you don't even
> mention what I believe is his main fault: to disobey his orders. He behaved
> stupidly on other matters, but that's a relatively minor issue.
["other matters" = taking offense about how the identity of the envoy]
and with
> Given the actual orders he received from Darlan, I think it's very likely that a
> different commanding officer might have avoided the fighting entirely.
[btw, Retillion might rightly object that here we're trusting wikipedia too much; so, stuff like the "unlikely to concede" in your wikipedia quotation, or my comments about the orders received by Gensoul might be off the mark. My answer is that this should be considered a "linguistic" discussion]

@Raro: I think you're right in saying that the diplomatic risks were very high. France had many ways to hurt England even stopping short of joining the germans. Just to name a couple (that I believe were not employed), it might have provided airbases for attacks on Gibraltar and Malta (and other British bases), or could allow the axis to use the Tunis harbour (strongly reducing risks for their convoys in the Med). But I think that the french fleet was perceived as a mortal danger (since it could be used to support an invasion of England), and this fact trumped every other consideration.
Tomahaha (1170 D)
12 Mar 14 UTC
still not buying it. Right or wrong and no gray area for me.
You want us to believe a third option existed? Britain either makes the demand or they don't. I see no middle ground!

and me and my "Hate Speech" hahahahahaha, yeah, that was really hateful wasn't it. I said the French were being French, (ummm, last time I checked every Frenchman was French) and yes they were being arrogant in their position, that is not "hate speech" but rather a fact (and not even an opinion)
pyrhos (1268 D)
12 Mar 14 UTC
Thanks Retellion for the facts it was very interesting. I've read a little about that before but now I learned a lot. Since I'm very interested in history (I have a lot of books at home) I'd have to agree with you that if France would have declared war on Britain it would have been a real blunder.
Tomahaha (1170 D)
12 Mar 14 UTC
I doubt France would have declared war on Britain and even if she had, I doubt it would have mattered much. If you are a Frenchman at the time, would you now go to war with Allies and now suddenly accept Germany as your new ally and partner? No freaking way would that fly. You simply can not expect the French to now embrace the Nazis, who just invaded your country and killed what several hundred thousand people? These are your new friends, England (and the allies as we were all united) is now your new enemy? Nope, that would never ever happen, to assume it was even a remote possibility is crazy talk.
Tomahaha (1170 D)
12 Mar 14 UTC
Oh, and thanks for supporting my side, even De Gaul agreed the Brits were in the right. Yet YOU know better!?
HawknEye007 (1135 D)
12 Mar 14 UTC
I'm going to take a lesson from this comic and let you all be. Cheers.
http://xkcd.com/386/
pyrhos (1268 D)
12 Mar 14 UTC
I think I'll do the same
Retillion (2304 D (B))
12 Mar 14 UTC
@ Tom :

You have just answered as if you didn't know what "Hate speech" means.

"Hate speech" has a precise and legal definition, which has not been created by me :

"Hate speech" is speech (but also writing, gesture or display) that attacks a person or a group of persons on the basis of some charateristic like, for example, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, physical characteristic (a handicap for instance), etc.

So, when you write, for example [YOUR EXACT WORDS] :
" the French were (and still are) quite arrogant! I stand by that 100% "

You are using "hate speech", even if you don't know it, even if you don't want it.

And by the way, when you made fun of handicaped persons in the Global Press of the game "A New Era" : gameID=16661, that was also "hate speech".

If you refuse to understand that you are using hate speech, try to go and find some people of some nationality and tell them that the *people of that nationality* are *any unpleasant, or even "funny" word of your choice*. Try to do that a few times, if you only dare and don't be surprised to get your head smashed !


Come on, Tom, stop it. Please tell us nicely that you have understood what I am telling you.
Please, try to write us now something decent.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS : I have just read your 2 latest messages. The more you write, the more you show your IGNORANCE !

Indeed, you wrote [YOUR EXACT WORDS] :

- " the Nazis, who just invaded your country and killed what several hundred thousand people? "
-> The battle of France took the life of less than 60,000 military men. That is of course a huge number but that is certainly not "several hundred thousand people".

- " These are your new friends, England (and the allies as we were all united) is now your new enemy? "
-> On July 03 1940, the United Kingdom was the ONLY country at war with Germany. The USSR and the USA, for example, entered the war only much later !

- " De Gaul agreed the Brits were in the right. "
-> You are not even able to write "de Gaulle" correctly.
-> Anyway, Charles de Gaulle wrote in his "Mémoires de guerre", many years after World War II was over, a much more moderate comment about the possibility that the French ships in Mers El Kébir could have fallen into German hands.
-> You failed to understand that Charles de Gaulle HAD to say that the British attack was "right or wrong", mostly because most people are stupid and irresponsible and need a leader who tells them what is right or wrong. You have miserably misunderstood my comment to GOD. Indeed, when I wrote to GOD [MY EXACT WORDS] :

" On July 08 1940, only a few days after the British attack, Charles de Gaulle declared officially that the British did the right thing in Mers El Kébir. Charles de Gaulle was later elected twice President of the French Republic... "

You failed to understand that my point was that de Gaulle was elected even though he had made that statement, which proved that the French were not still angry about the Mers El Kébir bombing.

Tom, if I wanted to be nasty, I would tell you to please continue to write about the Mers El Kébir battle : your IGNORANCE is very entertaining.
ChrisVis (1553 D)
12 Mar 14 UTC
Thanks for your informative post, Retillion.

On behalf of all moderate and open-minded members of this forum, I apologise to Retillion and all others for the insults they have endured.
Tomahaha (1170 D)
13 Mar 14 UTC
oh, because I didn't look up the number of casualties, suddenly the French would welcome the invading Nazi's with open arms....what kind of logic are you using?

Yet you continue to spout facts in an effort to make yours a superior position even though it's terribly lacking. The Brits were in the right, De Gaul agreed...yet you use the De Gaul fact to support something you claim on one hand while dismissing it on the other.

I said the Brits were right, the French were wrong
You want to take the mamby pamby "it's nobodies fault" position. You then go on to list endless facts that simply mean NOTHING and then you try to dismiss other opinions if they said something a bit wrong...like it suddenly made their opinion wrong?

Please read what you are writing, aside from a bunch of facts, you are all over the place. Using de Gaulle (or however you want to SPELL his name) to support your non-decisive side. Yep, your ignorance is also entertaining, the facts are nothing you use but a smokescreen to hide behind. The Brits were RIGHT, now tell me I'm wrong. tell me why I'm wrong, so far you have said nothing to show I am wrong and if you think it's nobodies fault, please tell us what the French SHOULD have done in that situation, nope they were being arrogant (not hate speech but rather a fact)
Tomahaha (1170 D)
13 Mar 14 UTC
and lets use more of your own facts
You claim the UK was the ONLY country at war with Germany at this time (July 1940) What about France? You want us to assume the fleet would have stayed out of German hands yet here you are claiming France is not at war with Germany (again, sounds like further proof the Brits were right) Not to mention the many other nations Germany had already invaded, since they were beaten you do not list them, but what about Canada and Australia? They were independent nations and they were indeed ally powers. Oh no, you mis-spoke, does that make everything you stated immediately wrong now? Seems to be your thinking
GOD (1907 D Mod (B))
13 Mar 14 UTC
@Retillion well i was talking with some (elder) French people last year there, and they said the action was unnecessary and a shame...
Retillion (2304 D (B))
13 Mar 14 UTC
@ GOD :

Saying that the action was unnecessary and a shame is not the same is not at all the same as saying they are still angry.
Retillion (2304 D (B))
13 Mar 14 UTC
@ Tomahaha :

We could discuss for ages about the exact meaning of the word "Independance" as far as Australia and Canada are concerned. For example :

- It was only in 1986 with the "Australia Act" that Australia eliminated the remaining possibilities for the UK to legislate with effect in Australia, for the UK to be involved in Australian government and for an appeal from any Australian court to a British court.

- Did you know that even today, when Canada and Australia are obviously independant countries, it is still Elizabeth II who is the Queen of those two countries ?

So, in order to express better what I meant, I will rephrase : in July 1940, the British Commonwealth was alone in his fight against the Axis.

You have written to me [YOUR EXACT WORDS] :
" You want to take the mamby pamby "it's nobodies fault" position. "

First of all, thank you for allowing me to improve my English, which is not my native language : I had to look for the meaning of "namby pamby" (with an "n").
And no thanks for your insulting "namby pamby" !

Obviously, you don't read and you don't understand. Indeed, in my first post, I wrote to RUFFHAUS_8 [MY EXACT WORDS] :

" I do not have a fixed opinion about who was right or who was wrong in that terrible situation.
Were the English right about their attack ? I suppose they weren't but I am not so sure…
Were the French wrong about not surrendering ? I suppose so but I am not so sure… "

-> In other words, I wrote that they were all wrong, which is exactly the opposite of saying that it is nobody's fault !

And that is exactly my feeling : when people kill each other, it is always wrong and it is never right.

Tomahaha, you have been insulting, xenophobic (in many countries, you could be prosecuted for what you wrote) and you have proved your ignorance.
You try to prove that you are right and that those who disagree with you are wrong and you are not interested in learning thanks to others' points of view.
This is the last time that I answer to you in this conversation.

One last thing, I first read about the Mers El Kébir battle 28 years ago. How about you ? Please tell us when you read or heard for the very first time about it. Wasn't it by reading this thread less than a week ago ?
diatarn_iv (1458 D)
13 Mar 14 UTC
@Retillion:
I thought a bit more about the issue of basing a conversation on wikipedia, and became aware of a possible fault I did not consider in the beginning: it's the english-language wiki, and therefore it might suffer from a pro-british bias (simply because most french sources might be inaccessible to people who edited the wiki). So, I went on the french wiki (I suggest everyone really interested to do the same), and found these sentences [translation by google, so imprecisions are likely; for example, I guess "the intention was to scuttle Gensoul" should be corrected into "Gensouls's intention was to scuttle"]
"according to the French marine survivors, it seems that the intention was to scuttle Gensoul (or at least sabotage the French squadron to render it unusable) and he would have shared in Somerville. But according to Kammerer, Gensoul expected levels of government (which was being moved to Vichy) and, as the armistice stipulated that any decision regarding the fleet had to be approved by the committee of the armistice (ie by Germans), the orders of Vichy could not go in that direction.
In the course of the afternoon, a compromise was about to be found, after Somerville had extended its deadline. But assistants Darlan, Vice Admiral Le Luc made ​​known by radio Gensoul that French squadrons of Toulon and Algiers are carried to his rescue. British captèrent this message and London Somerville ordered to open fire."
I see the french wikipedia also includes both the immediate reactions from De Gaulle, and what he wrote in his memoirs (some 10 years later).
In general, are you aware of any major discrepancy between the British and the French versions? and I see Gensoul survived until 1973: what was his version of the facts?

@Tom: you are technically right that in July 1940 the British were not the only nation that had not signed an armistice with Germany: in fact, (if I'm not mistaken) the governments of Poland, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Norway and Denmark considered themselves at war with Germany. But since their homelands were occupied by Germany, their combined military strength was little more than 0 (the main contribution coming from the Dutch fleet in Indonesia), and the British were indeed alone for all practical purposes.
Anyway, your "what about France" really sent a shiver down my spine, since the fact that France DID sign an armistice with the Germans (June 22 1940) is the foundation of all this discussion (and without that, British actions had no sense at all).
Retillion (2304 D (B))
13 Mar 14 UTC
@ diatarn_iv :

You are of course right : when studying an historic question, one should have several sources and these sources should be very different from each other, which means having sources from writers of different nationalities, different cultures, different languages, etc.
And all those different sources will help the reader, the historian to understand what *most probably* happened.

In our case, yes : the Wikipedia article in English and the one in French are indeed rather different. I can tell because I read easily both English and French languages.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But what is astonishing in this discussion, and that is why I initially did NOT want to write here, is the fact that several persons here are defending very strongly some position even though they obviously haven't read the Wikipedia article in English that started this conversation ! For example :

1° RUFFHAUS_8 wrote in his first message [HIS EXACT WORDS] :
" This delayed and confused the negotiations, which ultimately failed, and resulted in the British sinking 11 French ships "

But the Wikipedia article in English that RUFFHAUS_8 refers to states clearly that only 1 ship was sunk on July 03 1940. That article also says that 1 other ship was sunk on July 04 1940 and that 1 last ship was sunk on July 06. And no other sinking is mentioned in the article.
And so I wonder : why has RUFFHAUS_8 written that 11 French ships were sunk in that battle ?

2° Tomahaha has written, for example [HIS EXACT WORDS] :
" France lost the entire fleet! "
Again, obviously Tomaha hasn't even read the Wikipedia article in English.


-> And so, we have here at least two people who defend very strongly "their" position and who even attack disrespectfully other people but they :
- haven't read the article which started this conversation ;
- and if they read it, they did not understand it ;
- or if they read and understood it, they forgot it.
Anyway, they did no do what I call "reading" !
Tomahaha (1170 D)
13 Mar 14 UTC
I like the continued false facts being stated as "facts" I did NOT use the wiki link to make my decision and instead checked several other places and I even linked one of them. So the continued assertion that I based my opinion only only the one wiki link is pure garbage yet continues to be posed as factual.

I also am waiting for Retillion to offer his opinion on who was right, he continues to take a middle road preferring to blame all equally yet in his many random factoids, just about every one of them continues to point out the English were in the right but he claims I'm a jerk for taking a side, anyone who fails to agree with him is wrong. Nope, I'm right, he's wrong and his own facts simply keep backing me up!

Methinks Retillion doesn't really read his own words yet he wants to take issue with anything mis-stated while ignoring his own mis-stated facts, The English were the ONLY nation at war with Germany? He continues to stand by that while picking on others, proving yourself to be correct because someone said one thing not quite right does not make their entire argument false and does not suddenly make yours correct. the FACTS that he loves to post frankly, tell one story ...the brits were in the right!
diatarn_iv (1458 D)
13 Mar 14 UTC
@Tom
When you posted the link to http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=96 , i did go there. And found a nice "source: Wikipedia" appearing just before the "British Attacks on the French Fleet Timeline" section.

As to the Commonwealth nations being allied with the UK (btw, in this context I always took the word "british" to mean "from the british commonwealth", not from Great Britain alone), please look at http://www.ww2australia.gov.au/wardeclared/
the very first lines tell you everything about the foreign-policy status of Australia:
> On 3 September 1939, Prime Minister Robert Gordon Menzies announced that
> Australia was at war with Germany.
>
> Fellow Australians, it is my melancholy duty to inform you officially, that in
> consequence of a persistence by Germany in her invasion of Poland, Great Britain
> has declared war upon her and that, as a result, Australia is also at war. [...]
I didn't look for other Commonwealth nations (New Zealand, South Africa, Canada), but I'd be very surprised if their situation was different.
Raro (1449 D)
13 Mar 14 UTC

Tom,
I think it's sad that you insist that there is no middle ground and that one of the sides MUST have been right. That type of inflexibility is useless in diplomacy and is probably the reason that many unnecessary wars are fought.

Anyway when you say that "....factoids, just about every one of them continues to point out the English were in the right", I think that the word you are looking for is "justified", not "right". There is a big difference between justified and "in the right". If someone insults your wife, you might be justified in kicking their ass, but a court wouldn't consider it "in the right".

RUFFHAUS 8 (2490 D)
13 Mar 14 UTC
Retillion, are you on your period this week? At the risk of prosecution I ask because you're arguing like a woman. You have pertinent facts to use, but you'd rather go to sensationalist tangents to try to make your points. As Tom correctly notes, you've yet to put your 28 years of study on this matter to any conclusion? Are you on the thirty year thesis plan or something?

For my part I misunderstood the casualty statistics from the Wikipedia article. You are correct. It was indeed only one French ship sunk. There were eleven ships in the French fleet, and in my haste to post this, since it was the second time doing so with the goofy limits on the opening thread post, I translated the chart incorrectly. Not all of them were sunk, just the one battleship. There was no agenda in misrepresenting this. It was a mistake. Sorry. Nitpicking my accuracy is one thing, but the number of ships lost doesn't really contribute to the right and wrong of the matter, does it? I may have also somewhere written that 1,300 French sailors when it was really 1,297. Sometimes people round numbers up, and when counting casualties in the thousands, you're probably always dealing in estimates anyway. Yet you chose to devote your learned experiences on this incident to harping on 1,297 vs.1,300?

And what is exactly is it that you're wondering about? And how does either correction by you (the second one fairly petty) leap you to a conclusion that I had some anti-France agenda with the entire post? I have said (repeatedly) that I put it out here for a reflection upon our communications in the hobby we share, as a lesson to what happens when Diplomacy breaks down. Your suggestion that there was some intent to bash France on my part is just silly. And even if such was my intent, any rush to their defense is equally silly. France has plenty to be ashamed about from World War II, and that's just part of their legacy.

If you have studied the incident for 28 years, that's great. Please share. But you're departure into accusations of hate speech and xenophobia is asinine in addition to being contrary to advancing the discussion of the topic. Unfortunately you've made the majority of you contributions on this in that arena.

I'm more than willing to take your expertise on the matter. I'd never heard of Mers-el-Kebir until last week, and found it fascinating. Unfortunately you've chosen to spend your time to get into some politically correct flame war, nitpicking everything Tom says, when you could have given a much more informed perspective than Wikipedia provides.

Raro, we're still waiting for whatever drivel you have to offer. You and Retillion seem to agree that this incident gave Germany a diplomatic win. With whom? The lines of alliance were all but drawn by this point. France was already a conquered nation struggling with it's identity under German occupation. Are you really attempting to push off French collaboration with Germany as a result of this incident?
cypeg (2619 D)
15 Mar 14 UTC
After attempts to follow this talk, I have come to the following conclusion ( as a historian myself). It seems to me that is the French Captain's fault. The alliances were drawn already. Why was he acting like a rooster to the brits when his country had just surrendered? Thus the probem as Ruff brought is up is one of miscommunication or different agendas or just lost minds. What followed next with public sentiment is another story.
Havent you played here with someone who refuses to see the obvious situation?
Raro (1449 D)
15 Mar 14 UTC
yes I have played with you, cypeg
Raro (1449 D)
16 Mar 14 UTC
I hope you realized that was a joke, cypeg
cypeg (2619 D)
16 Mar 14 UTC
:)
Schwarzenberg (979 D)
24 Mar 14 UTC
Nobody mentions the fact that the British admirals themselves (such as Sir Dudley Pound) opposed the attack on the French ships, as well as members of the British cabinet. There were numerous other proposals for how to disarm the French ships, including disarming them in the Algerian ports themselves. Gensoul, far from being 'typically French', was an Anglophilic Protestant naval officer of the first rank. The French had orders to scuttle the ships if the Germans tried to seize them. No matter how much they tried to impress this upon the British, they could not convince them. In any case, the French were also under pressure from the fact that they had just signed an armistice treaty with the Germans, who would not allow for the French fleet to fly to British controlled ports under British control. The ultimatum was therefore a non-starter, and met a renewal of war with Germany. At the last instance, Gensoul again requested the disarmament of the ships in place. The British officer negotiating with Gensoul, Holland, was in the process of reporting this offer to his superior, Admiral Somerville, when negotiations were abruptly cut off by the British government.

It is thus highly unfair to claim that Gensoul was simply being obstinate. There were other options available.



Schwarzenberg (979 D)
24 Mar 14 UTC
"As you can see, the French Navy did not lose their entire Fleet, far from it !"

Of course. The French scuttled the fleet prior to the Germans taking it in 1942. That massive fleet did not even include the 35+ vessels the British controlled via the 'Free French'.
RUFFHAUS 8 (2490 D)
24 Mar 14 UTC
Once again, the point of posting this wasn't so much to laud the British or slag the French, but to point out how failure to communicate effectively can lead to disaster. The ultimatum wasn't a non-starter, it was an ultimatum. Gensoul had options, and chose to ignore the urgency of the situation. He was being obstinate, and arrogant, and is guilty of attempting to exert leverage that he did not hold.
Tomahaha (1170 D)
24 Mar 14 UTC
It also doesn't change the facts of the day. Maybe other options COULD have been brought to the table, they simply were not. The deal at the time was basically surrender or die (and you have these three options to chose from if you surrender).

We can argue if it was right or wrong, yet most seem to thing the Brits were in the right since they had absolutely zero assurances that could be counted on. But still, the offer was surrender or die, Gensoul chose to die. Simple as that, trying to bargain from a position as his was foolhardy and it cost him over 1000 men and of that there is no debate! Yet still some continue to try...

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